I'm surprised that there hasn't been any comment on this issue?

I think he's Guilty of Manslaughter at least.

Huffingtonpost

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The death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin one month ago in Sanford, Fl has all the earmarks of the 1964 Mississippi murders of civil rights activists James Chaney, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner... right down to an inept local police department that, while not involved in the actual crime, as County Sheriff and Deputy Sheriff Lawrence Rainey and Cecil Price respectively had been forty-eight years ago, has failed to effectively investigate and arrest the killer. At best, it's an egregious dereliction of duty, and at worst it's a chilling example of the rampant racism that still exists in America today.

In many regions of the country there's been little material change regarding racial intolerance since Chaney, Goodman and Schwerner were beaten and shot to death. In 2012, despite the presence of Lebron James, DisneyWorld and Northeast retirees, Florida is as much the bigoted deep South as 1964 Mississippi. Which is why both the Martin and Mississippi cases required intervention and investigation from the U.S. Department of Justice. So much for progress.

Martin's killer, 28-year-old George Zimmerman, has not been charged or arrested, and remains free in an outrageous, reprehensible travesty of justice. All thanks to Florida's misguided Stand Your Ground Law which states that any person may use deadly force if "he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another."

Zimmerman had been part of an unregistered neighborhood-watch program in his gated community, Retreat at Twin Lakes. Records show he called police at least 46 times in the last eight years to report various suspicious people and acts. According to the Orlando Sentinel and other news organizations, he was twice accused in 2005 of either criminal misconduct or violence. He was licensed to carry a concealed firearm, and had a black Kel-Tec semiautomatic handgun the night he shot Martin. Martin was found with only a can of Arizona Iced Tea and a bag of skittles. Last time I checked, no one's ever been killed by a beverage or a bag of candy.

Florida legislators maintain that Stand Your Ground does not provide a defense for people like Zimmerman who, despite being told by a 911 dispatcher to stop following Martin, pursued and confronted the youth before shooting him to death.

Zimmerman "has no protection under my law," said Florida Senator Durrell Peadon, who sponsored the law. And according to state Representative Dennis Baxley, "There's nothing in this statute that authorizes you to pursue and confront people." So how is it that Zimmerman, carrying a semi-automatic weapon, felt his life was in danger by a 17-year-old carrying nothing but candy and a drink?

Wendy Dorival is Sanford's volunteer coordinator for the Police Department. She helped train Zimmerman. She stated that those involved in neighborhood-watch programs are supposed to be "the eyes and ears" for the police, "not a vigilante." Specifically, she said, members "are not supposed to confront anyone. We get paid to get into harm's way. You don't do that. You just call them from the safety of your home or your vehicle." She added that carrying and using a gun on patrol violates protocols.

Furthermore, the National Sheriffs' Association, which sponsors the neighborhood-watch program nationwide, is 100% clear in its manual on this point as well: "Patrol members do not carry weapons," have no police power, and should "not attempt to apprehend a person committing a crime or to investigate a suspicious activity." Lastly, not following the guidelines can result in serious consequences: "Each member is liable as an individual for civil and criminal charges should he exceed his authority."

Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee Jr. has resigned, but said "While I stand by the Sanford Police Department, its personnel and the investigation that was conducted in regards to the Trayvon Martin case, it is apparent that my involvement in this matter is overshadowing the process."

But that's not enough. What's needed here is justice. Logic and circumstantial evidence suggests that an innocent 17-year-old youth carrying nothing but candy and drink was murdered by an unemployed super-hero wannabe vigilante with a sketchy past and a semi-automatic gun hiding behind some Draconian law after being told by police to go home and let them investigate. It's hard to fathom on any conceivable level how Zimmerman can claim his act was in self-defense, or how and why Lee's police department would let him walk free... automatically presuming his innocence over Martin's. Martin is dead and can't defend himself. Hopefully the rest of America will.

Ken:

I think that it is for the court to decide. Charges need to be brought.

Ethan

from what I can see Zimmerman was an unstable person wanting to be a hero. The more information that comes out indicates an unjustified killing. He had no police powers by any stretch of the imagination, no legal right to pursue or engage with anyone. If he was afraid of his safety he could have carried pepper spray instead of a gun. But he had a gun and was looking for an excuse to use it.

That is my opinion.

That's my take on it too Shelly.

That's the way I see it. Plus, he was told to stay in his car and not pursue Trayvon. According to the reports I've heard, he ignored the police and went after him, questioning him as to what he was doing and why he was there. Once you pursue someone and initiate a conflict with them, you lose all rights to claim self-defense if you shoot them.

I've also heard Zimmerman (or a supported of his) justifying that Trayvon should have just told him who he was and where he was going. I don't buy this excuse. Even if Zimmerman would have accepted any explanation Trayvon gave (which I'm not convinced he would have), imagine the situation from Trayvon's perspective.

You're walking down a dark street with a bag of Skittles and iced tea. Some guy runs up to you and starts demanding to know who you are and where you are going. Would you tell this random guy? Or would you tell him to leave you alone and try to get out of there as quickly as possible? Remember, you're "armed" with candy and iced tea and you have no clue who this guy is or what he intends to do to you. I certainly wouldn't stop and talk to the person. I'd try to get out of there as quickly as possible.

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QUOTE:I certainly wouldn't stop and talk to the person. I'd try to get out of there as quickly as possible.

Especially after the guy pulls a gun.

This has turned into a seriously politically charged thing. The White House makes comments, & there are marches all over the Country.

The right thing is for the grand jury to make a determination. I believe that is scheduled.

I'm sure we'll hear more about this one on ALL the networks.

Fred

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This has turned into a seriously politically charged thing...

And so it should.

---

Paul D

Quote:

The death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin one month ago in Sanford, Fl has all the earmarks of the 1964 Mississippi murders of civil rights activists James Chaney, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner... right down to an inept local police department that, while not involved in the actual crime, as County Sheriff and Deputy Sheriff Lawrence Rainey and Cecil Price respectively had been forty-eight years ago, has failed to effectively investigate and arrest the killer. At best, it's an egregious dereliction of duty, and at worst it's a chilling example of the rampant racism that still exists in America today.

In many regions of the country there's been little material change regarding racial intolerance since Chaney, Goodman and Schwerner were beaten and shot to death. In 2012, despite the presence of Lebron James, DisneyWorld and Northeast retirees, Florida is as much the bigoted deep South as 1964 Mississippi. Which is why both the Martin and Mississippi cases required intervention and investigation from the U.S. Department of Justice. So much for progress.

Sadly, all of the above applies.

Zimmerman, a product of this ignorant and fearful sub culture, is a rascist and guilty of cold-blooded, pre-meditated murder.

The fool thought he was doing the world a favor.

F'n guns!

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QUOTE:F'n guns!

No. F'n ignorant fools.

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QUOTE:F'n guns!

No. F'n ignorant fools.

Just as they show graphic results of car crashes in Drivers Ed, I've always wondered what type of results Showing the graphic results of a bullet smashing and ripping through a body would have on Gun owner / user Ed would have.

Ethan

Well new details seem to be coming out about this. All I'm going on is something I heard on the radio this morning. I've not had time to corroborate it.

Anyway there seems to be an audio tape with screams for help on it...that Trayvon's father has said is not Trayvon. Which would indicate that it was Zimmerman who was screaming. There also seems to be an eye witness who says that Zimmerman was heading back to his vehicle when Trayvon jumped him and started beating on him.

Like I said I haven't had time to corroborate any of it. But there may be more to this than it first seemed.

I also heard a radio news report stating that another person saw Zimmerman being attacked and Zimmerman was yelling for him to call 911, which he did. I've only heard it once though.

The reports I've heard (including interviews with Trayvon's father) had him saying he believes those calls for help were Trayvon's pleas.

Another interview with some national "Neighborhood Watch" group who was shocked that Zimmerman was armed while on patrol. He said that people in his organization never carry guns while on patrol for this exact reason. Pepper spray would have been one thing. If Trayvon had attacked Zimmerman, he could have used pepper spray to subdue Trayvon (without killing him) while he (Zimmerman) retreated. But taking a gun with you while acting as a neighborhood watch captain is just asking for trouble.

Right... Skittles and ice tea vs a gun. The kid was not on PCP (down at the morgue the first thing they did was test the skinny little punk's corpse for dope), nor did he have a history of insanity or violent behavior.

If he did attack the paranoid racist, Zimmerman, it must have been in utter desperation, in the absolute certainty that this fool was about to shoot him down like a dog. He therefore becomes a victim defending himself against an aggressor.

Zimmerman violated the boy's civil rights by murdering him. Additionally, since he had been heard to mutter the words, "These niggers always get away with it," when beginning his warned-against armed pursuit, this became a hate crime. Twenty five years on bread and water in a federal lockup with absolutely no chance of parole.

Then all f'n guns in the civilian population confiscated and melted into acoustic guitar strings.

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QUOTE:

Then all f'n guns in the civilian population confiscated and melted into acoustic guitar strings.

I believe Nazi Germany did basically the same thing. How did that turn out?

BTW, the wanna-be cop was wrong. Dead wrong. Also gives responsible gun ownership a bad rap. You're entitled to your opinion, but please don't lump everybody together.

Right. I wouldn't go so far as to say Zimmerman shows that guns should be banned. I would say that ownership of a gun should require that you take gun safety courses first and any gun-related crime should strip you of the right to carry a gun. Yes, criminals would ignore this, but hopefully it would pressure law-abiding citizens to stay safe with their guns and not treat them like objects that solve minor arguments.

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Right. I wouldn't go so far as to say Zimmerman shows that guns should be banned. I would say that ownership of a gun should require that you take gun safety courses first and any gun-related crime should strip you of the right to carry a gun. Yes, criminals would ignore this, but hopefully it would pressure law-abiding citizens to stay safe with their guns and not treat them like objects that solve minor arguments.

By which time it's too late.

---

Paul D

What facile logic. Is the United States of America Nazi Germany or in even remote danger of becoming Nazi Germany? I sincerely doubt it. It is however fast becoming Dodge City or at least a close approximation of it.

This thinking is brought to you by the NRA, the same self-serving facililtators of mass murder who helped bring you the imbecilic law that has seen the rate of so-called self-defence killings increase almost three-fold since it was enacted. The law is nothing less than a license to kill. It takes the dispensensation of justice out of the hands of the state and places it in the hands of the individual. Yet another rightist step, in the bastardized name of freedom, along the road to the demise of civilization.

James, take a deep breath and relax.

I'm completely relaxed. And why shouldn't I be? I'm in my element.

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QUOTE:
Right... Skittles and ice tea vs a gun. The kid was not on PCP (down at the morgue the first thing they did was test the skinny little punk's corpse for dope), nor did he have a history of insanity or violent behavior.

If he did attack the paranoid racist, Zimmerman, it must have been in utter desperation, in the absolute certainty that this fool was about to shoot him down like a dog. He therefore becomes a victim defending himself against an aggressor.

Zimmerman violated the boy's civil rights by murdering him. Additionally, since he had been heard to mutter the words, "These niggers always get away with it," when beginning his warned-against armed pursuit, this became a hate crime. Twenty five years on bread and water in a federal lockup with absolutely no chance of parole.

Then all f'n guns in the civilian population confiscated and melted into acoustic guitar strings.

Well, lets see.... you've labeled the 17 year old as a skinny little punk which is a term generally used to identify a young ruffian/hoodlum. That opens the possibility that this hoodlum was up to no good and likely attacked Zimmerman. Just because he had some iced tea and Skittles doesn't make him an innocent bystander. Note that it is also reported that he was suspended from school for traces of marijuana in his back pack. There are 17 year old gang bangers around here that will shoot you just for fun.

You have tried, convicted, and sentenced Zimmerman based only on what has been posted by a news media with a history of being quick and eager to report news with little regard to how factual their story is.

I'll not get into a gun discussion other than to say that my neighbor, his girl friend and their child are alive and well today because he was armed.

I'm not defending Zimmerman but I'm not convicting him either until all the facts are in and he's had his day in court.

I definitely wouldn't convict him without a trial, but at this point he isn't even under arrest. How is it that the police get a call about a suspicious person in the neighborhood, tell the caller to stay in their car, arrive on the scene to find that the caller ignored their advice and approached/shot the suspicious person, and *NOT* make an arrest? How do they *NOT* treat this like a homicide from the get-go? If Zimmerman really acted in self defense, let that be his defense strategy at his trial. Let a jury be presented with all of the facts and see if they believe it.

If the jury thinks he's innocent, let him go free. If they find him guilty, lock him up and throw away the key. However, not even going through with the trial and having the police essentially saying "Zimmerman must have acted in self defense because he said so" is unacceptable.


BTW, regarding:

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Note that it is also reported that he was suspended from school for traces of marijuana in his back pack. There are 17 year old gang bangers around here that will shoot you just for fun.

Being suspended from school for traces of marijuana doesn't mean Trayvon was the aggressor. And the only thing that that "gang bangers might shoot you for fun" means to me was that there was even more reason that Zimmerman shouldn't have confronted Trayvon. His job was report suspicious people to police. Full Stop. Anything after that and he was taking the law into his own hands.

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QUOTE:How do they *NOT* treat this like a homicide from the get-go?

It's easy to understand when it happened in the deep south. The hatred for blacks hasn't subsided much for many southerners.

Dave

The authorities, based on the similar stereotype you use here, assumed this murdered young man was a punk. I made an a rather poor attempt at irony.

My assumptions about Zimmerman's culpability are based on the evidence that has thus far been presented in the media, leavened with the little bit of common sense that my sixty-seven years of observing the human comedy has given me. It is my opinion. I am not a prospective juror and I will not be judging this case with any authority to punish or vindicate this individual.

Be that as it may, were it up to me the ignorant rascist bastard would be clamped in irons and tossed into a deep, dark dungeon.

All I'm saying is that there seems to be more coming out about the whole incident. None of us were there, none of us know exactly what happened, none of us have access to all the evidence. And if you noticed, in post #3 I agreed with Shelly.

And I won't even comment on your gun paranoia.

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And I won't even comment on your gun paranoia.

Good. I'm equally paranoid about spiders.

:lol: I can't help but like you man. Even when I disagree with you ;)

If you want, we can lend you a few giant house centipedes to eat the spiders. Then you just need to be paranoid about house centipedes.

Thanks but not necessary, Jason. I've spent more than six decades honing my spider defences. All last spider season I had but one arachnid intruder, and he or she quickly regretted the decision.

And I haven't yet had to resort to the use of firearms. Usually hunt 'em down with a folded up magazine or phone my sister. The Zimmerman's of the world should take note.

Here's one place we differ. I catch the poor little buggers and release them outside. I wouldn't even do that if it weren't for my wife's sharing your phobia.

I shared my computer room with a 4" Huntsman for over a week before I was instructed to remove him.

But then, my son and his partner have a pet snake.

---

Paul D

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QUOTE:And I won't even comment on your gun paranoia.

It's only paranoia when not based on fact.

Dave

Ah, ha!

I'll cancel that appointment with the shrink.

This Guy Zimmerman should be locked up wait trial.

and yes it seems like Zimmerman went beyond he duty and rights
and did wrong. If you are on neighborhood watch the only real thing
you have the right to do is to Watch and alert the police
to suspicious activity. You don't have the right to pursue somebody with a gun.

We're talking about Florida here,where everyone owns a gun.

Isn't it legal there,to shoot anyone that trespasses on your property?

Besides Texas,they have some pretty archaic laws.

And now there is a black organization from N.Y. that have put a bounty on this guy's head.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/blood-money-10000-bounty-on-george-zimmerman/2011/03/04/gIQAMko3bS_blog.html

Moving to Canada was the best choice I've ever made,in my life. :(

If Canada wasnt so cold I would move there myself

Yeah they have a bounty on this guys head. His days are numbered

I really HOPE that the authorities handle this situation
and bring this guy to justice. If they dont we are going to
have another "La Riots" type of thing.

That is all we need right now in the USA is or racial
tension to esculate to the point of riots and looting
and other bd stuff

That bounty is idiotic. What are they going to do if they get Zimmerman into their custody and the police don't choose to arrest him/charge him with a crime? Are they going to have their own trial, pass down a sentence, and mete out punishment? Much as I want to see Zimmerman face a trial, it should be a fair trial with a real judge and jury, not a mob of angry villagers with pitchforks and torches.

EDIT: Anderson Cooper is on CNN now and will have an interview with the Black Panthers who have put the bounty on George Zimmerman. In the clips they showed promoting this interview, the representative used the phrase "an eye for an eye" and declared themselves a military organization. No matter what Zimmerman did/didn't do, I fully support him going into hiding. Vigilante groups shouldn't be putting bounties on people like this. It's just going to result in more people being killed.

I would guess that about half the population of Florida owns guns, that would be 8,000,000 gun owners. I am a legal gun owner, it has been over 50 years since I shot anyone, and they were trying to kill me at the time. Over 500,000 people in Florida have concealed carry permits. The number of times a legally owned gun is used to shoot someone in Florida is a tiny fraction of 1% of gun ownership, and the number of unjustified shootings (non self defense) in Florida per year is infinitesimal in a state with over 16 million residents.

It is impossible to say how many innocent people in Florida would have died if someone did not own a gun and be able to protect both themselves and their families, or how many more serious crimes would be committed if criminals did not know they were facing an armed population. There is nothing to prevent a criminal or a maniac anywhere from being armed, they do not obey laws.

Yes we are armed, and that right is protected for law abiding citizens in this country. Get used to it. Most people are law
abiding and responsible, and have no desire to harm anyone.

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html

That has nothing to do with what I posted. I never suggested we did not have crime, homicides, accidents , or suicides. Criminals will always manage to get all the weapons they want. We balance that by allowing honest citizens to be able to defend themselves against the criminals.

I know this is against your mindset, but if you break into my home while I am there with a gun or other weapon in your hands, you will be dead. If you bring 15 of your friends with you, no problem, I have 16 hollow point rounds loaded and I never miss my target. It only takes me 3 seconds to insert another clip, and chamber a cartridge. I sleep very well.

We agree in this matter. Those who's only resort is to hope for a police rescue are sadly mistaken about how long it takes for the police to show up & the violent criminals who would kill you as soon as look at you.

I would do the same that you do.

Fred

I'll call before I come.

Ethan

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QUOTE:
That has nothing to do with what I posted. I never suggested we did not have crime, homicides, accidents , or suicides. Criminals will always manage to get all the weapons they want. We balance that by allowing honest citizens to be able to defend themselves against the criminals.

I know this is against your mindset, but if you break into my home while I am there with a gun or other weapon in your hands, you will be dead. If you bring 15 of your friends with you, no problem, I have 16 hollow point rounds loaded and I never miss my target. It only takes me 3 seconds to insert another clip, and chamber a cartridge. I sleep very well.

You're evading the point, which is that the numbers of those events you do have is disproportionate to pretty well every other civilised nation in the world. That's not balance.

It's worthwhile to note that the article James posted was not prepared by any anti-firearm lobby, but as a teaching document for medical students, letting them know what they can expect in their future careers.

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Paul D

That is the point. It is outrageously disproportionate. Accidental shootings, homicide, suicide, children shooting children, you name it.

Perhaps that has something to do with with the fact that everybody and his uncle are packing. Seems a reasonable assumption.

And our only protection against this unique cultural mindset is the 49th parrellel. And that is slowly coming aapart as more and more smuggled handguns find their way into our inner citiies.

But what can you do? Arguing this subject with an American is as productive as pissing into the wind.

Maybe there should be a study of those same countries to see how many deaths there are by stabbings, beating, bludgeoning, etc. How many of those deaths by firearms are the result of someone defending themselves. That's what really matters. An you can't say that if there were no guns that there would be nothing to defend against. That would be total bullshit. If someone is coming at me with a sharpened stick and I'm armed they're going to get shot. If you're stabbed with a sharpened stick you're just as dead as with a gun. It's not the weapon you should be condemning, it's the person behind the act.

I surrender.

I promised myself years ago that I would not argue this subject again, it's futile, but like the damned fool that I am, I continue to break the promise.

I'll promise myself again, and this time I hope I'll be able to keep it, along with the tenuous hold I have on my sanity.

You guys keep your powder dry, and good luck. You're gonna need it.

I bet if there was a big ass spider crawling toward you that you blow it away without a second thought :lol:

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QUOTE:
I surrender.

I promised myself years ago that I would not argue this subject again, it's futile, but like the damned fool that I am, I continue to break the promise.

I'll promise myself again, and this time I hope I'll be able to keep it, along with the tenuous hold I have on my sanity.

You guys keep your powder dry, and good luck. You're gonna need it.

It's like trying to rationalize religious zeal with the 'converted'. Logic escapes them.

Dave

When I joined the forum a few years ago this was the topic.


Ethan

Isn't every one in the US considered innocent unless proven guilty? Rushes to judgement are usually wrong. Just sayin.

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QUOTE:
Isn't every one in the US considered innocent unless proven guilty? Rushes to judgement are usually wrong. Just sayin.

Trayvon Martin was also innocent until proven guilty.

Correct, he wasn't proven guilty. But he also didn't have a lynch mob after him and a bounty on his head all fueled by media that doesn't have the whole story. And if, after all the facts are out and Zimmerman is tried and found guilty. Then by all means he should receive the harshest penalty possible...but still not at the hands of a lynch mob.

I don't think many will disagree with that, but don't you think using the term "lynch mob" in this particular circumstance may be a little inappropriate?

No, there are groups out there advocating just that.

edit: Oh wait, you're trying to make it a black reference. Well there were lynchings of people of all races long before there was a KKK or folks of like mind.

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QUOTE:
Correct, he wasn't proven guilty. But he also didn't have a lynch mob after him and a bounty on his head all fueled by media that doesn't have the whole story. And if, after all the facts are out and Zimmerman is tried and found guilty. Then by all means he should receive the harshest penalty possible...but still not at the hands of a lynch mob.

I agree, putting a bounty on Zimmerman's head is just plain wrong too!
If the local authorities had done their jobs properly instead of dancing around with unacceptable excuses, we wouldn't be seeing all these problems.

What "unacceptable" excuses? Zimmerman did not run or try to evade arrest. He was cuffed, transported to the police station and questioned by appropriate personnel. It was decided, based on evidence and information available that they did not have sufficient evidence at that moment to charge him or detain him so he was released. I'm pretty sure the authorities know where he is and can arrest him if circumstances warrant.

Same situation my neighbor was in except he took out a violent person with a history and police record of violence and other crimes who was intent on killing him and his family. He was cuffed and transported to the police station where he was questioned and subsequently released, all within a couple hours of the shooting. The investigation continued for quite awhile until it was determined he acted in self defense and no charges would be brought against him.

The system is working as it should but since it has now become a racial issue everyone wants Zimmerman hung from the highest tree and the legal system be damned. People need to calm down until the investigation has run it's course and Zimmerman has either been cleared or arrested.

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QUOTE:
What "unacceptable" excuses? Zimmerman did not run or try to evade arrest. He was cuffed, transported to the police station and questioned by appropriate personnel. It was decided, based on evidence and information available that they did not have sufficient evidence at that moment to charge him or detain him so he was released. I'm pretty sure the authorities know where he is and can arrest him if circumstances warrant.

Same situation my neighbor was in except he took out a violent person with a history and police record of violence and other crimes who was intent on killing him and his family. He was cuffed and transported to the police station where he was questioned and subsequently released, all within a couple hours of the shooting. The investigation continued for quite awhile until it was determined he acted in self defense and no charges would be brought against him.

The system is working as it should but since it has now become a racial issue everyone wants Zimmerman hung from the highest tree and the legal system be damned. People need to calm down until the investigation has run it's course and Zimmerman has either been cleared or arrested.

Seems to me an unarmed dead man would be enough evidence to charge the killer with something!! Around here he would have at the very least, been arrested for fighting in public. And I don't give a hoot what color any of them are, it is all wrong!!

An aggressor does not need to be armed to be a threat to a person's life. If Chuck Norris is about to unleash his talents on me I'm most definitely in fear of my life. For reasons I'm not privy to the investigating authorities determined that Zimmerman was in fear of his life and justified to use lethal force in defense. Thus he was not placed in custody. Further investigations may prove otherwise but that remains to be seen.

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QUOTE:And I don't give a hoot what color any of them are, it is all wrong!!

Nor do I. And what seems to be omitted in just about every media report and discussion is that despite Zimmerman's last name...he's of Hispanic descent. It's always at least hinted at that this was a white man shooting a black man.

White American father. Peruvian mother.

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Paul D

In Zimmerman's twisted mind he is the whitest of white men. A white knight-protector of the race. I wouldn't be surprised if a white warhorse and a white suit of armor are discovered in his closet. And I won't hint, this was a clear-cut case of a paranoid white racist executing the fearsome black enemy. An heroic act that more than likely had long been at the center of his sick fantasies.

We all know history and the raison d'ętre for such an ignorant fearful mindset. That's why I feel absolutely no need to be objective about this.

And you know all this how?

I'm not saying he's not guilty, I'm also not saying he is. It's simply that all the facts are not out and there shouldn't be a rush to condemn in the court of public opinion based on media hype.

WoW James! How long have you known that you have this truly amazing psychic ability? I'll bet George Noory would love to have you on the Coast to Coast AM radio program.

Since you're handing out psychic predictions could you tell me if I'm going to win the next Mega Millions lottery?

:--) :--)

My opinion has nothing to do with psychic powers, it's pure deductive reasoning at work. As Sherlock Holmes often said in the Hollywood B versions, "Elementary, my dear Watson."

As far as the lottery is concerned, I'll take a wild stab and predict not a chance. Do I win something if I'm right?

Yep. I'll send you the losing ticket. :--)

I would still like an explanation of how come the police chief and the states attorney just happened to both be waiting at the police station in the middle of the night on a Sunday, when Zimmerman arrived.

Because they heard the circumstances and wanted to sweep it under the carpet before the media got a hold of it but failed.

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That has nothing to do with what I posted. I never suggested we did not have crime, homicides, accidents , or suicides. Criminals will always manage to get all the weapons they want. We balance that by allowing honest citizens to be able to defend themselves against the criminals.

I know this is against your mindset, but if you break into my home while I am there with a gun or other weapon in your hands, you will be dead. If you bring 15 of your friends with you, no problem, I have 16 hollow point rounds loaded and I never miss my target. It only takes me 3 seconds to insert another clip, and chamber a cartridge. I sleep very well.

While I frequently differ with Shelly on many things in the political realm, on this I totally agree and find his comments "spot-on"...(the more liberal members may choose to ignore this descriptive vernacular if they wish). From early military duty to retirement in law enforcement, firearms have been part & parcel of my everyday apparel virtually all my adult life. Additionally, sport shooting is my primary hobby from rimfire to centerfire in rifles and handguns. I do not hunt but I do shoot and reload my own ammunition and belong to a gun club. My immediate family are accomplished shooters and some (but not all) have concealed weapons permits which I both support and encourage. I personally choose to retain my LE certification which requires annual training. Firearms are not nor, have they ever been the safety issue the left incessantly slavors over. An honest arguemnt on the merits of "firearms safety risk" will not happen since factual information runs counter to their preconcieved mindset and here, the gun ban crowd is disarmed in more ways than one.

As Shelly accurately points out in another post, the "Stand your Ground" law has nothing to do with with the unfortunate event that topics this thread. The facts will out and the events that led to the young man's death will stand on their merit. The media hype may be proven correct that this was a "bad shoot" but it could easily turn out to be that poor judgement were exercised by both the shooter and the deceased. Hopefully, for the residents nearby, the findings will prove definitive and quiet emotions but this is far from certain.

The idea that firearms enthusiast or those who hold concealed weapons permits are uneducated "cowboys" (or worse) is fiction. They are collectors, doctors, lawyers, professors, businessmen from every walk of life, olympic athletes and above all, everyday people. Most enjoy killing nothing more than the piece of paper on which a target is printed or a flying clay pigeon. In many cases, they are your friends and neighbors and you don't even know it. I strongly suspect that a single life-changing event in which an anti-gun advocate's life or that of a loved one were saved from serious injury or death by a legally armed good samaritan *might* alter their view.

The Stand Your Ground Law, makes sense. The alternative laws in other states were written by the naive. their view is when confronted by an armed criminal you must run away, retreat, or otherwise avoid confrontation. The reality is the guy who shoots first, lives and the other guy dies or is incapacitated 99% of the time, shots fired at close range seldom miss their target.

Stand Your Ground gives the innocent victim of crime a chance to be the one who survives the encounter. You can not outrun a bullet.

To obtain a Conceal Carry permit in Florida you must take a class in gun safety and usage, and the laws that apply, unless like me you have proof of military service. You must also have a police background check, and be fingerprinted. Something like 27 other states recognize and honor a Florida gun license, and have reciprocal agreements, so Florida is not the outlaw cowboy exception that many of you think it is. Any criminal has to think twice about making an armed threat to a citizen in Florida.

Considering the number of war veterans that suffer from PTSD or other symptoms of working in such a violent and convoluted scene as a war zone, do you think it is wise to automatically allow gun permits based on military service? A full screening should be done on all individuals, irrespective of background. People change, as do their state of mind. Gun courses should be mandatory, as well as regular re-testing.

This is assuming guns are allowed in the public at all, which I am not in favor of. But not being a citizen of the USA, I can't possibly be expected to see it your way. You folks love your damn guns, as well as the standard excuse for usage of such, 'He needed killin'. ;-) ;-) :lol:

Dave

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QUOTE:Considering the number of war veterans that suffer from PTSD or other symptoms of working in such a violent and convoluted scene as a war zone, do you think it is wise to automatically allow gun permits based on military service?

He didn't say that they automatically get a permit. He said they don't have to take a class on gun safety and usage. They already know how to use a weapon. ;)

If a person is suffering from PTSD, I doubt taking an NRA gun course will reveal that fact or modify their condition. My service was over 50 years ago, and most veterans are from long past wars. All Carry permit applicants undergo a back ground check by the police department or sheriffs office.

PTSD is hard to diagnose except in the most severe cases, and one does not need to be a veteran, or armed to be unstable. Out of the 500,000 Floridians with CC licences, it is hard to find more than a handful of instances over the decades when their actions were an abuse of power. Nothing that could be done within reason will prevent an ocasional unstable person from getting through. Remember criminals do not need a back ground check, or training, to have a gun, or to use one. Honest citizens have the right to face them on equal terms.

I have insurance on my car and motorcycle just in case. I have insurance on my house and property just in case. The insurance on my life resides in a holster inside the waist band of my jeans, the night stand beside my bed and standing between the night stand and the head board of the bed is an AR-15 with a 30 round clip. I sincerely hope I never have need to file a claim with any of them.

The neighborhood where I live is pretty quiet but home owners just a couple blocks away found this. There is more gang graffiti showing up all over town and these punks do not care who gets in their line of fire and burglaries and break ins are on the rise. I'll not be a sitting duck for any criminal who decides he or she wants my stuff.

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The Stand Your Ground Law, makes sense. The alternative laws in other states were written by the naive. their view is when confronted by an armed criminal you must run away, retreat, or otherwise avoid confrontation.

You mean to tell me that in states that do not have the stand your ground law an individual is not allowed to defend himself (with lethal force, if necessary) when confronted with the threat of leathal force?

Strange... We are certainly allowed to defend ourselves in such a way here in whimpy Canada. I wasn't aware that there were states in America even more whipped than us.

Learn something new every damn day.

Anyhow, here is definetly my last word on the subject. It's a repetition of something I've said more than once before, and that is that Americans seem to love their guns more than they do their children.

That comes under a different law, often called the Castle Law. If someone comes into your home or place of business and you feel your life or other peoples lives are in danger you have every right to shoot them, and no carry permit is required.

But I hope you don't believe that just because we own a gun we are looking for an excuse to use deadly force. We regard human life just as valuable , if not more valuable than you you do. No sane person takes a life casually, but no one has any greater right to take ours. Only a fool would try to wound an assailant, that is suicidal and only happens in the movies. When you pull that trigger you intend to kill.

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QUOTE:But I hope you don't believe that just because we own a gun we are looking for an excuse to use deadly force.

That's right. None of my guns have been fired in years and they've not even been out of the case in several months. And that was only to check them over.

The "Stand Your Ground" law will be the basis of Zimmerman's defence if this ever comes to trial. It seems to be the basis on which the local police have already tried and acquitted him.

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Paul D

This was a police force in a rural area. Video was released yesterday of Zimmerman arriving at the police garage handcuffed and showng no visible signs of havingbeen injured in a fight as claimed, nor was any blood visible on his cloths.

The States attorney was present at the police ststion and declined to prosecute on the then available evidence, and ordered Zimmerman released after questioning.

This incident occurred on a weekend, for the police cheif to get out of bed and come to work is unusual to say the least. For the states attorney to show up in a back woods community was even more than unusual.

There are full state and federal investigations under way now. I doubt we have heard the end of this shooting.

See Video here: http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/29/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

He says that Zimmerman was examined by EMT's at the scene before being transported. If so we need to hear from the EMT if there were any injuries. They also would likely have cleaned up any blood that might have been present so there is none showing up in the station video. I'll reserve judgement until all the facts are made known.

It would be interesting to see what those stats are for the different states.

I'm guessing Florida would rank fairly high. :(

Have a great day all!

I don't understand why there were no charges brought against this guy! I mean even if you sock someone in the nose these days you get charged for something

If the authorities determined initially that it was self defense then there are no charges to be filed and the subject is not detained.

Sorta like at the Long Branch Saloon when Matt asks Kitty and the cowpokes just in off the trail from Texas if the sodbuster on the floor with the smoking bullet hole in him drew first, then sends the smirking shooter on his merry way still blowing smoke off the end of his gun barrel.

Jeb, the latest Bush dynasty guy with presidential aspirations, is gonna rue the day he pandered to special interest and signed into law this anarchical stand your ground bullshit.

Gunshot wounds do not smoke. If the guy is dead and smoke is escaping, it's probably tobacco that killed him.

:lol: Poetic license. In Hollywood everything either smokes or explodes.

Well, actually, if shot at close range, the wound area will smoke. It isn’t the hole that is smoking but the clothing around the hole. Burning gun powder will start the clothing on fire or at least cause it to smolder.

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QUOTE:
I don't understand why there were no charges brought against this guy! I mean even if you sock someone in the nose these days you get charged for something

Yeah , you are right about that.
You can be detained just for saying something out of line

this guy shuld be in JAIL waiting trial
and because he is not > its stirring up racial tension and
we dont need that

At the very least, perhaps the police should take him into protective custody for his own safety (and as a suspect). Given that group that put a bounty on him seems to be seeking to capture, sentence and punish him themselves if the police won't.

This interview Anderson Cooper had with one of the group is chilling:

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/26/tonight-on-ac360-the-new-black-panther-partys-reward-for-trayvon-martins-shooter/?hpt=ac_bn15

At the moment Zimmerman is in hiding, and with good reason. There are now both state and federal investigations in progress, which will either corroborate of make moot the decisions of the local police. Eventually this will all be sorted out. We do not need hotheads nor the deranged being involved.

Quote:

QUOTE:
At the moment Zimmerman is in hiding, and with good reason. There are now both state and federal investigations in progress, which will either corroborate of make moot the decisions of the local police. Eventually this will all be sorted out. We do not need hotheads nor the deranged being involved.

Yeah this guy is smart to be hiding
his face is plastered every where and there are groups even
posting bounty on him. I would not be going into public places alone
i I were him.

this guy is going to have to live way up in the woods
for some years and live in cognito when this is over

And that's as wrong as what he did in the first place.

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Paul D

James will appreciate this. Probably not too many others.

With a wee bit of satirical exaggeration:- (The intro is as spoken by Lehrer in concert)

Almost every day during the hunting season you see at least one item in the newspapers about somebody who has shot somebody else, under the impression that he was a deer with a red hat perhaps, or a large flesh-colored squirrel. At any rate, it seems to me that this marks an encouraging new trend in the field of blood sports, and deserves a new type of hunting song which I present herewith:-

I always will remember,
’twas a year ago november,
I went out to hunt some deer
On a mornin’ bright and clear.
I went and shot the maximum the game laws would allow,
Two game wardens, seven hunters, and a cow.

I was in no mood to trifle,
I took down my trusty rifle
And went out to stalk my prey.
What a haul I made that day.
I tied them to my fender, and I drove them home somehow,
Two game wardens, seven hunters, and a cow.

The law was very firm, it
Took away my permit,
The worst punishment I ever endured.
It turned out there was a reason,
Cows were out of season,
And one of the hunters wasn’t insured.

People ask me how I do it,
And I say, there’s nothin’ to it,
You just stand there lookin’ cute,
And when something moves, you shoot!
And there’s ten stuffed heads in my trophy room right now,
Two game wardens, seven hunters, and a pure-bred guernsey cow.

Sorry. Couldn't resist posting this.

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Paul D

;-)

Tom Lehrer: The Hunting Song (concert live) (1960) on Youtube.

Jim.

At least one eyewhitness has come forward (identity withheld) that contradicts Zimmerman's claims.