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Subject: "OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!" Previous topic | Next topic
doctormidnightMon Sep-09-02 11:10 AM
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"OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"


  

          

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/09/08/ar911.first.lady/

"If I don't see it, its not there"

  

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MessiahMon Sep-09-02 11:40 AM
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#1. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 0)
Mon Sep-09-02 11:41 AM

          

lol, i think she just wants to be looked upon as a person thinking of the children, so the american citizens will think, 'o look, she's concerned about our children', but then again, it could be with good intentions as well. I think every kid out there has seen those pics already though. Just my 2 cents

Visit http://www.supernoobs.com/wbboard for windows and linux support!

  

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dbahnMon Sep-09-02 03:38 PM
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#2. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Messiah (Reply # 1)


  

          

How can you expect children to understand why we would bomb Iraq and not let them in on the events that bring us to that point? Our country has begun what will become a long drawn-out war on terrorism, and the kids need to understand why.

Dave

Dave



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baloMon Sep-09-02 04:04 PM
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#3. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to dbahn (Reply # 2)


          


I do not think Mrs. Bush is entirely off base. The pictures are devastating for adults. Just watching 60 minutes last evening was emotionally and physically draining. What effect do you think this would have on a child say 6-10? It would create a fear in children that is unnecessary. We can explain the events without the graphics, particularly to young children.





http://www.bobbalogh.com/


  

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oldhammMon Sep-09-02 04:26 PM
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#4. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to balo (Reply # 3)


          

I'm with Balo. Call them (and us as parents) naive, but my 3 under-7 kids seem to think that the world is a kind, happy place, and that they're surrounded by love and support.

They will learn the realities of life soon enough. They've seen the WTC pictures and other atrocities on TV when I'm not quick enough on the remote, and these have been explained to them as honestly as we feel is appropriate for such young children. For now I'm happy to let them experience how things might be, before I expose them to how some might think things really are.

I think it fair to generalize and say that in Australia we feel the loss of our US friends as if it was our own (and of course some of our own were in both Towers). We have rememberance ceremonies in our major cities on September 11. In our family we will light candles, and leave the TV off.


Malcolm

Malcolm



  

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jespur62Mon Sep-09-02 05:19 PM
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#6. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to balo (Reply # 3)


          

put me in with balo and oldhamm
kids don't need to know and experience every detail

  

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hal9000Mon Sep-09-02 08:09 PM
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#10. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to balo (Reply # 3)


          

LOL Balo! And as Mrs. Bush speaks of shielding America's children from violent images, America's youth is in their bedrooms exposed to a continuous stream of gratuitous violence in movies, cartoons and computer games bought by their parents, while America's government supports sanctions in Iraq where Iraqi children die every day of diseases that did not exist in pre-sanction Iraq, or of ailments that could be easily treated with simple medication; medication that is banned.

Sanctions in Iraq devastate the entire Iraqi civilian infrastructure and have annihilated the country's water and sewage treatment facilities. Iraq has been unable to rectify the situation because items such as chlorine, crucial to water treatment, are not allowed into Iraq under the sanction regime.

  

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AllynMon Sep-09-02 09:31 PM
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#16. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 10)
Mon Sep-09-02 10:20 PM

          

images of the hijacked planes striking the towers and the subsequent collapses. Once or twice is enough. Time to read a good book and time to play.

I don't like the idea of anyone, especially children, going without sanitary drinking water, or other basic amenities. But without some of these sanctions, that jackass Hussein would already be crossing other boundaries as tyrants have done in the past. His invasion and destruction of Kuwait was uncalled for. His troops caused extensive environmental damage clearly indicating he and his followers have no regard for the planet and any lifeform.

I'm afraid the current sanctions aren't enough.

  

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davidMon Sep-09-02 04:42 PM
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#5. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 0)


          

When I was a child my siblings and I were allowed to just be kids. We weren't expected to be aware of things that we were not able to either understand or control. Here is another reality that is often overlooked; children do not have the emotional and mental maturity to handle all of life's pressures, nor should they be expected too. Look at what all of todays children have to deal with; AIDS, divorced parents, drugs, sex, violence and public "pseudo-education". How much more "reality" should we ask our children to bear? Why do so many adults act like children and expect the children to act like adults?
Just because it's out there doesn't mean we should subject are children to it, we should protect them from it. I agree with Mrs. Bush and I would take it one step further, turn the TV off and leave it off!
David

  

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garbruMon Sep-09-02 06:53 PM
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#7. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to david (Reply # 5)


  

          

I agree with Mrs Bush also. Children need time to be children. Time to play, grow and be supported in positive things. Children dont need to know about some of the horrors of the world until they are old enough and mature enough to handle it. A young child viewing the images of sept 11 over and over could just devistate their view of the world and the future, when the fact is that there are lots of good things in the world, lots of good people and events like sept 11 dont happen often. When kids reach adulthood they will have plenty of time to learn about the evils of the world. I would rather teach a kid about lifes tradgedies bit by bit as they grow rather then shatter their outlook of the world with images of a devistating tradgedy like 9/11 at an early age.

Garbru

  

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hal9000Mon Sep-09-02 10:16 PM
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#19. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to david (Reply # 5)
Mon Sep-09-02 10:19 PM

          

Should be Response to #16

LOL!! Our culture sanctions its children's repeated exposure to violent images in the form of entertainment day after day while calloused to the loss of lives of children in the countries we see fit to bomb or sanction. And BTW, the same tyrant you're worried about aggressively crossing other boundaries, was funded and supplied with biological weapons by the US and encouraged to cross other boundaries when it served in US interests, in an attempt to over throw the then, anti-American government in Iran. It is all a perpetual state of denial and hypocrisy of the highest order.

  

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paladin1Mon Sep-09-02 10:34 PM
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#20. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 19)


  

          

Dave did the right thing in the movie.

paladin1

  

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AllynMon Sep-09-02 10:37 PM
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#22. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 19)


          

The U.S. has undoubtedly made major policy errors in the past. In hindsight, arming Hussein would qualify as such an error. But that doesn't excuse Hussein for his past or present sins upon the planet and its peoples, within or across Iraq's boundaries.

  

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MontanaMon Sep-09-02 11:17 PM
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#26. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 19)


  

          

>Should be Response to #16
>
>LOL!! Our culture sanctions its children's repeated exposure
>to violent images in the form of entertainment day after day
>while calloused to the loss of lives of children in the
>countries we see fit to bomb or sanction. And BTW, the same
>tyrant you're worried about aggressively crossing other
>boundaries, was funded and supplied with biological weapons
>by the US and encouraged to cross other boundaries when it
>served in US interests, in an attempt to over throw the
>then, anti-American government in Iran. It is all a
>perpetual state of denial and hypocrisy of the highest
>order.

The Hollywood entertainment exposure, while sickening in it's own right, is patently fake. Even the youngest child quickly figures this out or is informed of it, but the nightmares can still continue. On the other hand, there is nothing fake abt the 9/11 attacks & I doubt any child missed the 'film @ 5pm', nor the repeated discussions in class rooms across America.

Maybe showing them the same film clips over & over will cause them to further fear & hate those who have bombed us. An extremist fear if you will.

Yep, you're right Hal, the good ole US has made many mistakes, but guess what, I do believe we're learning from them or at least trying. But the major lesson is...THERE IS NO GOING BACK...so deal with it! No matter how many concessions we make, this nightmare is not going to go away!

  

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hal9000Mon Sep-09-02 11:29 PM
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#28. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Montana (Reply # 26)


          

>The Hollywood entertainment exposure, while sickening in
>it's own right, is patently fake. Even the youngest child
>quickly figures this out or is informed of it...

Hmm, the repeated events of children slaughtering other children in school yards in a turkey shoot with automatic gun fire wouldn't somehow be related to any of this patently fake hollywood entertainment, would it? You know...where even the youngest child quickly figures all this out.

  

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cascaTue Sep-10-02 10:37 PM
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#61. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 28)


  

          

No, before they used shotguns, dynamite and sixshooters. Violence in any form is not really new, just being "rediscovered" by the latest generation.

We just developed a bubble for awhile, all bubbles burst.

Under Construction

  

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GroganMon Sep-09-02 07:07 PM
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#8. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 0)


  

          

Kids are going to be watching their cartoonies just like any normal day. As if they are going to linger on CNN. That's right, get on with life.

Grogan

  

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Backward BobMon Sep-09-02 07:11 PM
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#9. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 0)


          

Doh Boy and Doh Girl need to move to FL with Shelly and Doh's Brother.

I am from Texas and would not want him coming back there.

Meanwhile he is out trying to start war with Iraq, to get rid of a guy his daddy could have gotten with a grenade. Doh girl had better call CNN.

I think they have ridden the 911 long enough. Time to find the asshole who caused it.







  

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ShellyMon Sep-09-02 08:16 PM
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#11. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Backward Bob (Reply # 9)


  

          

My generation grew up with constant news reports on the radio from the front in WW2, and later with the pictures of the atomic bomb destroying entire cities along with their populations. And later with atomic bomb drills in school, and many people installing bomb shelters in their back yards.

So what else is new?

Shelly

  

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Backward BobMon Sep-09-02 08:26 PM
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#12. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 11)


          

Me too Shelly. That's why I want him to go to Florida, not to see you, but to see the folks who cheated for him and his bubba. It's just happenstance you are a FL citizen, LOL.







  

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baloMon Sep-09-02 08:38 PM
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#13. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 0)


          


Read this http://www.omh.state.ny.us/omhweb/crisis/crisiscounseling3.html to better understand the reaction of children to the incidents of 9/11 or any other traumatic event that migh occur.


Shelly, without being rude, alot has changed since WWII. We have a much better understanding of trauma and its affect.

Iraq: Let us not mix oranges with apples. Ms Bush is making a statement to protect our children. Iraq's problems are of their own making. People suffer for the actions of their governments. Unfortunate but true.







http://www.bobbalogh.com/


  

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hal9000Mon Sep-09-02 09:13 PM
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#14. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to balo (Reply # 13)


          

It is supreme hypocrisy for Mrs. Bush to cry out for the protection of America's children from violent images while her husband and president views the lives of other children as dispensable, as in Afghanistan, where children and their civilian families (as well as wedding parities) are blown to bits and considered nothing but justified collateral damage while searching a few caves for one illusive man, who at one time was recruited, funded and employed by the CIA.

You see Balo, you see the world through the eyes of a censored media who have instilled within you the belief that war against other countries like Iraq and Afghanistan--who in reality pose no threat to America's sovereignty--is justified and that the lives of their children are meaningless. You are an unwitting victim of carefully orchestrated propaganda.

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger." -- Hermann Goering, at the Nuremberg Trials, quoted by David McGowan, Derailing Democracy (Common Courage Press, 2000), p.59

  

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nightlyreaderMon Sep-09-02 09:30 PM
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#15. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 14)


          

I'm sure Hillary and What's His Name really gave a rat's ass, when they were in office. Other than a few crookadile tears. At least Mrs. Bush really cares.

Nightly Reader

  

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baloMon Sep-09-02 10:35 PM
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#21. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 14)


          


"You see Balo, you see the world through the eyes of a censored media who have instilled within you the belief that war against other countries like Iraq and Afghanistan--who in reality pose no threat to America's sovereignty--is justified and that the lives of their children are meaningless. You are an unwitting victim of carefully orchestrated propaganda."


I don't think that is the way I see the world. Read a few of these articles http://bobbalogh.com/majorityofone.html and you will come to the conclusion that I don't agree with yourpoint of view.


Do you really believe we are not at war with the forces of militant Islam? Do you believe we were not attacked a year ago and that it was just an event orchestrated by a few misguided folks? Do you believe Saddam Hussein and Iraq do not possess and are not seeking weapons of mass destruction? Do you believe that the US Cole, the Lebanon bombing, the Kenya bombing, etc. were not planned attacks of War? Do you still believe that wars are only fought by nations and cannot extend far beyond boundary lines and be perpetrated by philosophical belief? If these are your beliefs that it is you who are naive my friend and not me.


However, all of the above are not related to the initial aspect of the thread. Children and the problems they experience through the observation of such events as the seeing of the World Trade Center attack. I stand by the report I cited and an array of other psychological information generally available to all.

Enough said - for the moment!!!






http://www.bobbalogh.com/


  

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hal9000Mon Sep-09-02 10:47 PM
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#23. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to balo (Reply # 21)


          

It is well documented that Osama bin Laden is and was a creation of the Central Intelligence Agency in the 1980's when he joined with Mujahedeen Freedom fighters in Afghanistan. He worked with Gulbadin Hekmatyar who was running six heroin factories under CIA protection in Pakistan and Afghanistan. As recently as 1996, the U.S. government had secret agreements with the government of Sudan to allow him sanctuary there for the purposes of monitoring him. In 1997-1998 after the cruise missile attacks on the El Shifa pharmaceutical factory, which were absolute disasters for the U.S. because no weapons were made there. The U.S. intelligence community had ample ability to know and to track his movements. A green light was given for covert operations against bin Laden and when you couple this with the fact that we know now, from European reports from Germany, France and Israel, that advance warning had been given to the U.S. government of an imminent attack, the current U.S. government position on this is really not sustainable.

You see what you want to see Balo.

  

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dbahnMon Sep-09-02 09:45 PM
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#17. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to balo (Reply # 13)


  

          

""Shelly, without being rude, alot has changed since WWII. We have a much better understanding of trauma and its affect.""

One thing that's changed since WWII is that crisis counseling has become an industry. Instead of experiencing the grief, or anger, or depression, or any of the other natural emotions that arise from tragedy, we send everyone off to social workers to "get fixed". We say to our kids, "You shouldn't have to experience bad things, but if you do, we have a remedy and then everything will be allright again." On the surface, that might be OK for children for a while, but I'd rather think that our kids know the truth about the world around them, because they are going to have to deal with it in a very short time. Bad things, like terrorism, are very real and they aren't going away by counselling.

Dave





Dave



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ShellyMon Sep-09-02 09:47 PM
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#18. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to balo (Reply # 13)


  

          

Sorry, Balo. I don't recall being traumatized then, or saying that I ever had been.

Shelly

  

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CrunkMon Sep-09-02 11:21 PM
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#27. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 18)


  

          

I guess some children can endure it without any effects and some can't. That's to the parent to decide. Sure they might feel a little depressed or sad, well so do some of the adults. I think it's all about knowing your kid and if you're not sure, then just take the safe route.



  

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meekocmereTue Sep-10-02 01:14 AM
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#37. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Crunk (Reply # 27)


          

Crunk, smartest thing I've heard all day!

Sadly, though, Mrs. Bush's statement was triggered by the new and frightening trend in parenting: Let Someone Else Do It. Most statements today made in regards to parenting, like that stupid "It takes a village to raise a child" bull$hit, are borne of the total lack of an ability or desire to raise their own kids by a good number of today's parents. I make this statement not as an attack on anyone on this board, or on any of the comments I've read in this thread, but as a statement on the sorry state of today's family unit. A lot of the people breeding today need to be told what might not be good for their kids, or "helped" in looking after them. But that's a whole other thread!

I on the other hand believe in raising my OWN kids. And part of my belief in raising them is that I don't lie to them and I don't try to sheild them from the world around them. Instead, I try to take negative situations and turn them around so we can learn something from them, whether it be about human nature or or about the right/wrong way to act in a given situation. Granted, I'm not perfect, but I'm trying. And the fact that I'm trying was made evident to me in my (then) 8 year old son's comments about 9/11: "Mom, when I grow up, I'm going to make a building you can't knock over with a plane." Instantly, he was thinking of what he could do to help, even if he was thinking farther ahead than tomorrow. I'm very proud of him.

  

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JazzgirlTue Sep-10-02 02:35 PM
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#59. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to meekocmere (Reply # 37)


  

          

Meekocmere, I don't have children but I wholeheartedly agree with you. What makes me apprehensive is so many people talk about protecting the children and shielding them from these horrible scenes. You don't think they saw them last year for weeks on end??

I remember when I was a child my Mom never tried to hide anything from me and always told me the truth. She never said I couldn't read anything or ask any questions. She always thought an informed child was one who knew how to make better choices. At least she felt I could protect myself because I had the knowledge to make better decisions.

Jazzgirl

Jazzgirl

  

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meekocmereWed Sep-11-02 04:08 AM
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#62. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Jazzgirl (Reply # 59)


          

In a way, I hate that I have to teach my kids about negativity and distrust. But as a former "sheltered" child, I went into the world wearing rose-colored glasses, which quickly got broken, over and over. I think that disappointment was much worse than any I would have suffered in finding out at a young that life's not fair, people sometimes suck, and $hit happens (sorry if I seem flip about 9/11. I'm not. I have the deepest sympathy for those who lost their own lives or the lives of their loved ones. But I needed to make it short and to the point). Ya know?

  

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hal9000Wed Sep-11-02 04:36 AM
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#63. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Jazzgirl (Reply # 59)


          

Exactly! Parents who have faith in themselves, have faith in their children and allow their children to develop on their own--they don't see their children as powerless victims but instead, acknowledge and have faith in thier child's unique creative abilities as was demonstrated in Meekocmere's child's resolve to build a stronger building. This child was given the confidence and freedom to solve his own problems and was enpowered by it.

  

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MontanaMon Sep-09-02 10:48 PM
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#24. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 0)


  

          

>Sanctions in Iraq devastate the entire Iraqi civilian
>infrastructure and have annihilated the country's water and
>sewage treatment facilities. Iraq has been unable to rectify
>the situation because items such as chlorine, crucial to
>water treatment, are not allowed into Iraq under the
>sanction regime.

LOL at Hal9000! Who's not facing reality now? We initiated those sanctions against Iraq due to the proven terrorist acts committed against the US as well as against members of their own ppl & neighboring countries. If we lift those sanctions now do you really think they will all of a sudden shower us with gratitude & love? No! They will still hate us just as much as before the sanctions were in place but they will also have more resources for creating deadly havoc in the world. Their hatred is way beyond any US policy 'mistakes' in the past. Differing religous faiths/pride probably have a bit to do with it as well (duh, ya think). The difference is that Christians would like to take over the world faith-wise, but have since learned that it is not entirely possible unless they totally kill off all the ppl who choose to worship some other Magic Man in the Sky of their choosing. Muslim extremists on the other hand... :'( Aside frm extremist thoughts, is it not also true of basic Muslim teachings that they think they are & should be #1 worldwide?

And do you really think the US likes to be the cause of suffering of innocent children? You know the answer to that is a big fat NO, which only goes to show you how dire the situation concerning Iraq's potential for committing nuclear devastation really is that we have not been able to lift those sanctions.

I'm also sure we care more about the children of Iraq than they do or ever did care about the children who lost their lives or parents during the 9/11 attacks. Wasn't there some behind the hands snickering going on in Iraq at the time?

Face it, there is no turning back the clock to rectify past mistakes by the US, real or perceived.



  

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hal9000Mon Sep-09-02 11:00 PM
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#25. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Montana (Reply # 24)


          

Myths and Realities

"In numerous presentations, Voices in the Wilderness members have heard the following myths. We think the discussion below will help clarify our perspective on several important issues.

Myth #1 The sanctions have produced temporary hardship for the Iraqi people but are an effective, nonviolent way to pressure the Iraqi government.

Surveys by UNICEF, the United Nations Children's Fund, have found that almost one-third of Iraqi children are suffering chronic malnutrition. An April, 1997 UNICEF report says that 4,500 children continue to die each month for lack of adequate food or medicine. The UN Department of Humanitarian Affairs reports that "public health services are near total collapse - basic medicines, life-saving drugs and essential medical supplies are lacking throughout the country. 50% of rural people have no access to potable water and waste water treatment facilities have stopped functioning in most urban areas." The sanctions are an insidious form of warfare that have claimed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilian lives.

Myth #2 The US government wants to enforce UN Resolutions and uphold the rule of law.

The US has consistently employed a double standard when it comes to UN Resolutions and international law. For decades, the US has vetoed UN resolutions condemning Israel's occupation of Arab territories. It is also relevant to the current situation that the US is in technical violation of a global treaty to dismantle chemical weapons (AP, 2/27/98). A Senate bill passed in 1997 allows the president to deny international inspections of US weapons sites "on grounds of national security." UN sanctions against Iraq, which continue to be imposed at the insistence of the US (with the UK following suit) are a gross violation of the Geneva Protocol 1, Article 54; Starvation of Civilians as a Method of Warfare is Prohibited. It's significant that the US, which has yet to ratify the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, considered using nuclear weapons against Iraq in February, 1998.

Myth #3 The US Government is concerned about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

The US and other western European countries were the major suppliers of chemical and biological weapons to Iraq in the 1980s during the Iran-Iraq war. A report from the US Senate Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs states that 9 out of 10 biological materials used in Iraq's weapon components were bought from US companies. The Los Angeles Times (2/ 19/98) reported that the US supplied satellite intelligence to the Iraqis when they used chemical weapons against Iran in 1988. During the Gulf War, the US military used depleted uranium tipped shells, rockets and missiles, spreading tons of highly toxic uranium oxide particles into the air. A dramatic rise in congenital diseases and fetal deformities has been found amongst both the children of Gulf War veterans and Iraqi children under age five.

The US imposes genocidal sanctions which are themselves a weapon of mass destruction, yet the US sells billions of dollars of weapons of mass destruction to other Gulf states. Israel possesses over 200 thermonuclear weapons and has violated 69 UN mandates, yet the US uses its veto power in the UN Security Council to prevent the UN from seeking Israeli cooperation with UN mandates and ignores Israel's possession of nuclear weapons.

Myth #4 The Iraqi government has made weapons inspections impossible and something must be done about it.

In February, 1998, the US prepared for and threatened to bomb Iraq over access to the presidential palaces. At the same time, former weapons inspector Raymond Zalinskas, a University of Maryland professor, stated that the inspections have resulted in the destruction of all major (bombing) targets related to chemical and biological warfare and that "95% of UNSCOM'S work continues unhindered." (NPR 2/13/98). UN Secretary General Kofi Annan's diplomacy took the wind out of the US bombing effort. Following his visit to Baghdad, inspections have continued smoothly and indeed, no weapons have been found in the presidential sites. In a Chicago Tribune article, (2/15/98) Zalinskas wrote, "Although it has been theoretically possible for the Iraqis to regain such weapons since 1991, the duplicity would have been risky and expensive and the probability of discovery high."

Myth #5 Economic sanctions or military force are the only means that will force Iraq to comply with UN agreements.

Sanctions and military threats have only served to strengthen the Iraqi government's position while punishing innocent civilians and isolating them from the international community. On the other hand, efforts at negotiation and conciliation, such as Kofi Annan's February, 1998 visit, have produced cooperation and an opening for continued dialogue. Establishment of a clear timetable for the wrap-up of UNSCOM's mission and recognition of progress made by the Iraqi government would provide incentive for further compliance. We believe that there is no humanitarian benefit in backing Iraq into a corner and causing greater desperation, as the economic sanctions have done. Much good will stands to be gained from recognizing the fundamental human rights (e.g., the rights to food, clean water, health care), of Iraqi civilians and not using human beings as a bargaining chip in trying to force US will on Iraq's leaders.

Myth #6 UN Resolution 986 (the oil for food deal) has begun to alleviate the suffering of the Iraqi people.

Dennis Halliday, the UN humanitarian coordinator for Iraq, stated on January 12, 1998, that Iraq would need in the neighborhood of $30 billion / year to meet its current requirements for food, medicine, and infrastructure. Resolution 986 initially allowed Iraq to sell up to 2.14 billion dollars worth of oil every six months. After allocations are taken out to pay for Gulf War reparations and UN administrative expenses, the amount of money which trickles down to the average person in central and southern Iraq is 25 cents per person per day. Currently, the UN is offering to allow Iraq to sell $5.26 billion worth of oil every six months. However, Iraq says it cannot pump more than $4 billion worth of oil because of the deterioration of oil field equipment under sanctions. This claim was corroborated by a team of experts working for the United Nations who stated that "the deplorable state of Iraq's petroleum industry will prevent it from exporting the $5.26 billion worth of oil." (AP 4-16-98) In light of damages caused by 7 years of comprehensive sanctions coupled with Gulf War bombardment, even the $5.2 billion offer is grossly inadequate to repair Iraq's shattered infrastructure, a medical system near total collapse, and a destroyed economy.

Myth #7 Doubling the amount of oil Iraq is allowed to sell, under Resolution 986, would enable the Iraqi government to meet the population's need for medicine and medical relief.

In an interview with the February, 1998 VitW delegation, Dr. Habib Rejeb, MD, head of the World Health Organization (WHO) in Iraq, said that such revenue would meet Iraqi needs in terms of purchasing medicine "but you would be providing this in a vacuum because you don't have the equipment. If you buy laboratory materials and you don't have the equipment it's useless....you give antibiotics but because of the poor hygiene in hospitals it's unlikely that you can prevent cross-infections. If you don't provide the proper food in hospitals then you can't enhance recovery. You can't really work without electricity, you can't really work without water, and you can't work safely while stepping on sewage which comes out often. To improve the health situation you don't only need drugs because this is the tip of the iceberg....If you want to provide the proper care to the population then you have to rehabilitate the infrastructure."

Myth #8 The Iraqi government does not care about its people and siphons off material aid intended for civilians.

The World Health Organization (WHO) and the World Food Program (WFP) have carefully monitored Iraqi distribution of all food and medicine purchased under Resolution 986 auspices. In February, 1998, Voices in the Wilderness members interviewed officials from the WHO and the WFP. Both UN organizations gave an "A" rating to the Iraqi government distribution of food and medicine throughout every governorate. Over the past two years, dozens of doctors in Iraqi hospitals have told our delegations that they believe distribution of available medicines is fair. The problem is that desperately needed medicines are in short supply. They receive only 5 to 10 percent of the medicines they need to treat patients.

US officials and media pundits repeatedly refer to the opulence of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's palaces. They neglect to point out that Iraq has been building palaces for 7,000 years and that building anything puts Iraqis to work when unemployment is rampant. Construction of palaces, mosques and other buildings currently underway uses indigenous materials, doesn't require importation of sophisticated infrastructure materials (such as those needed to build hospitals and schools), and is largely financed with Iraqi dinars which are worthless outside Iraq. Why is there no similar outcry about the Pentagon's wasteful and destructive expenditures that siphon money away from meeting human needs in the United States. The US military pours taxpayer money into highly criticized B-2 Stealth Bombers at a cost of billions. What about ongoing US Defense Department development and possible use of new generations of weapons, including nuclear weapons?

Myth #9 The Iraqi regime represents a unique and monumental threat to world security.

US military planners have fanned a war hysteria based on fears of Iraq when in fact Iraq is a crippled country, badly damaged by UN/US imposed economic warfare and previous bombardments. The US government needs to distract the US public from the fact that in a post cold-war world, there are no enemy threats to justify current military spending.

Myth #10 An international consensus endorses US policy towards Iraq.

France, Russia and China, permanent members of the UN Security Council, have continually challenged the US position on sanctions and have opposed US military strikes. The Pope, 53 bishops and numerous other religious leaders have called for an end to sanctions and vigorously protested military strikes against Iraq. The Arab League has called for an immediate lifting of sanctions and deplored US threats to bomb Iraq. In fact, the US has acted in defiance of international consensus and has incurred mistrust and criticism for its arbitrary and selective enforcement of UN Resolutions.

Myth #11 The US military presence in the Middle East protects US national interests.

Whose interests is the US military protecting? Sacramento State University professor Dr. Ayad Al-Qazzaz notes that "before the gulf war, the Saudis exported less than five million barrels of oil a day. Today, as a result of sanctions against Iraq, the Saudis export more than nine million barrels a day. Since the imposition of sanctions against Iraq in 1990, Saudi Arabi has made more than 200 billion dollars. Most of this money is spent in the US by buying billions of dollars of military equipment." US arms merchants have sold a whole new generation of high-tech weaponry not only to Saudi Arabia but also to Turkey, Egypt, Kuwait, the UAE, Jordan and Israel. These sales actually prop up the US economy. The US government is protecting the interests of oil barons and war profiteers. The interests of the majority of US people lie in developing just and equitable relations with people in the Middle East. Our interest lies in cutting the $300 billion dollar Pentagon budget and using those funds for better schools, jobs and education.

  

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baloTue Sep-10-02 12:18 AM
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#29. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 25)


          



Hal, I don't have any problem either disagreeing with you nor having you disagree with me. However, I do have a problem when the sources you quote, and your Myths and Realities piece were all quotes not from a Voice in the Wilderness but rather from the website: http://www.nonviolence.org/vitw/sanctions.html

which is a non-violent site. I have no problem with that either - just identify it. The presentation of information from non-violent and socialistic philosophies are fine, just inform all of the source.







http://www.bobbalogh.com/


  

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hal9000Tue Sep-10-02 12:35 AM
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#30. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to balo (Reply # 29)


          

I quoted it exactly the way I saved it. The information I quoted was taken from a book, entitled: Taken from Iraq Under Siege: The Deadly Impact of Sanctions and War, ed. Anthony Arnove (Cambridge: South End Press, 2000), pp. 67-75. To order, call 1-800-533-8478, email southend@igc.org, or visit http://www.southendpress.org/books/iraq.shtml

  

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ShellyTue Sep-10-02 12:55 AM
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#33. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 30)


  

          

Funny, I have not heard of any poverty, starving, lack of medicine, or deprivation for Sadam's government leaders, or the republican guard, or army. I must read all the wrong publications...

Shelly

  

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hal9000Tue Sep-10-02 01:05 AM
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#35. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 33)


          

The casualties of these sanctions are civilians and children. If you think those are effective deterrents and measures imposed by the strongest and most poweful nation on earth to the weakest...then what can I say.

  

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MontanaTue Sep-10-02 01:36 AM
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#38. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 35)


  

          

>The casualties of these sanctions are civilians and
>children. If you think those are effective deterrents and
>measures imposed by the strongest and most poweful nation on
>earth to the weakest...then what can I say.

So what then is the solution? Kissing their butts sure ain't gonna make a difference now. We've passed that point & if you think there's any going back, you're fooling yourself.

>Gimme a break...I'm a child of divorce.

Er right, conversation over after making flippant remark. Seems to be your style...

>Ok dude, I gotta level with yeah, I've moved on...I've been doing some reading and I'm much more concerned about this now:
Blind Psychic Gropes Buttocks to See Future
http://www.pcnineoneone.com/dcforum/computer/46881.html#23

  

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hal9000Tue Sep-10-02 02:06 AM
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#39. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Montana (Reply # 38)
Tue Sep-10-02 02:07 AM

          

Ouch Montana...you wouldn't be on personal bashing crusade would ya. I mean to make use of my post on another thread for the sake of a character assault is rather sad and really reaching. LOL!!

>So what then is the solution? Kissing their butts sure ain't
>gonna make a difference now. We've passed that point & if
>you think there's any going back, you're fooling yourself.

Yeah! Go get em' tiger...lets kick ass and invade the country and take over their oil supply and take one more step towards global war for Exxon, Mobil, Chevron, Texaco and the rest of corporate America...what was I thinking...child of divorce or not!

  

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ShellyTue Sep-10-02 04:27 AM
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#42. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 35)


  

          

What ever gave you the idea that Iraq was the weakest nation on earth? I gave you credit for more sense than that!

My point was that Iraq has resources to help its people, Saddam prefers to build his army and his arsenal, so he can suppress his people, threaten his neighbors, and protect his ass form his own populace. Forgive me for not being impressed by your crocodile tears for poor Iraq. I used up my tears on 9/11/01.

Shelly

  

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hal9000Tue Sep-10-02 05:05 AM
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#44. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 42)
Tue Sep-10-02 05:06 AM

          

>What ever gave you the idea that Iraq was the weakest nation
>on earth?

Correction, one of the weakest nations.

>My point was that Iraq has resources to help its people,
>Saddam prefers to build his army and his arsenal, so he can
>suppress his people, threaten his neighbors, and protect his
>ass form his own populace.

And what remaining resorces Saddam excludes from his civilian population to build his army and his arsenal have been further exacerbated by the imposed sanctions. You've just acknowledged that Iraq's people are already oppressed and impoverished because of its leader. What sense does it make to oppress and impoverish its civilians and children even more with the imposed sanctions?


  

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hal9000Tue Sep-10-02 05:43 AM
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#46. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 42)
Tue Sep-10-02 05:44 AM

          

The children in Iraq know little or nothing of 911, but they are still children and feel pain like other children and are some mother's child somewhere, who has the same love and wish for the health of that child as all mothers everywhere. These imposed sanctions are political and serve no useful purpose. I shed a tear for all victims ravaged by war...not just those in my own country.

"They are the most brutal form of war because they punish an entire population, targeting children, the future, most of all. Sanctions are a weapon of mass destruction. From 1990, when sanctions were imposed on Iraq until 1995, half a million children under the age of five died of malnutrition and preventable diseases. Sanctions impose artificial famine. A third of Iraq's surviving children today have stunted growth and nutritional deficiencies that will deform their shortened lives..."

http://www.iacenter.org/iraq.htm

"The combined effects of the 'Gulf War' and the international embargo have killed 1.5 million men, women, and children in Iraq in the last 11 years?"

"Among the victims are 650,000 children under 5 years old, according to UNICEF?"

http://canesi.org/

"The Gulf War and sanctions reportedly have resulted in more than 1 million Iraqi deaths, half of which were children younger than 5. Prohibitions on replacing such "dual-use" items as water pumps, generators and chlorine resulted in lethal epidemics. As U.S. lawmakers debate whether the military should again strike at Saddam's regime or simply tighten the trade embargo, Iraqis brace for the next round of crossfire."

"WASHINGTON — Massive new irrigation systems stretching across the breadbasket regions of rural Iraq would normally be cause for celebration. In a nation where nearly a quarter of the children suffer chronic malnutrition, abundant crops of wheat and barley would signify hope and progress.

But when Hans von Sponeck, former assistant secretary general of the United Nations, visited Iraq last month he found neither: The spigots were turned off. Although the sophisticated sprinkler systems had survived the exhaustive screening of U.N. trade sanctions, the water pumps had not."

"The danger is these pumps could be used by the (Iraqi) military for other purposes," said von Sponeck, a 32-year veteran of the United Nations who resigned two years ago to protest the sanctions. "Anything that has a sophisticated pumping mechanism can be used for propelling weapons of mass destruction, I guess."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/134506556_sanctions04.html

  

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PointmanTue Sep-10-02 12:49 AM
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#31. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 25)


          

Hal, you don't seem to approve of anything about the U.S. Would you be kind enough to tell us just which country, political system, society, religion, foreign, environmental and energy policies do meet your expectations?


Pointman

  

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waldoTue Sep-10-02 12:50 AM
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#32. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Pointman (Reply # 31)


  

          

Sighhhh (here we go again)

Walter A Robertson

  

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hal9000Tue Sep-10-02 12:57 AM
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#34. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Pointman (Reply # 31)


          

Gimme a break...I'm a child of divorce.

  

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PointmanTue Sep-10-02 01:10 AM
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#36. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 34)


          

Aw come on Hal, you know they don't build monuments to critics. Those of us who can't think for ourselves need your guidance. What country should we be living in, who has the best policies, etc. Don't just point out the problems, give us some workable solutions.


Pointman

  

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hal9000Tue Sep-10-02 02:54 AM
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#40. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Pointman (Reply # 36)


          

http://www.cyberjournal.org/cj/rkm/WE/jun00Matrix.shtml

  

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PointmanTue Sep-10-02 04:03 AM
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#41. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 40)


          

Oh Hal, I just don't have the comprehension to wade through such a wordy article. You don't need to rely on someone else state your case. Can't you just go on record and give us your personal choices? While you're at it, maybe you could give us a few solid reasons for your choices?


Pointman

  

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hal9000Tue Sep-10-02 04:56 AM
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#43. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Pointman (Reply # 41)


          

Well maybe others who have both a sincere interest and the time will benifit from wading through the article as I have. My reasons and choices for my political views are based on the writings of others far more educated than I. Most people's education and understanding of world political events is derived from network news...people like NBC who are owned by General Electric, a massive defense contractor and owner of about one third of the nuclear power plants in the US.


  

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PointmanTue Sep-10-02 05:37 AM
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#45. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 43)


          

> "will benifit from wading through the article as I have."

What was so beneficial about the article? What qualifications does that author have that makes you think his opinion is worth more than someone else's?

> "My reasons and choices for my political views are based on the writings of others far more educated than I."

Well, after reading all those educated writers, surely you can succinctly tell us exactly how to get our country back on the right track.

>"Most people's education and understanding of world political events is derived from network news...people like NBC who are owned by General Electric, a massive defense contractor and owner of about one third of the nuclear power plants in the US."

There you go getting off task and speaking in generalities. If you're not careful, folks might begin to think that you're like a bird dog that can do nothing more than 'honor' another dog's point.

Pointman

  

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hal9000Tue Sep-10-02 05:58 AM
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#47. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Pointman (Reply # 45)


          

LOL, and just where have you been? I've been expressing my point on this thread...all day.

Tell you what...educate yourself and well talk more. In the mean time...you can start here http://www.geocities.com/hal9000report/

  

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Randellx5Tue Sep-10-02 06:18 AM
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#48. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 47)


          

Hal... I'm rather curious as to why you spend time for such endevors on a computer forum, surely there are forums where the rhetoric would fit right in. Here, every OT discussion is some reason to philosophize endlessly, with slightly veiled references to a lack of intelligence or knowledge for anyone who disagrees with you.

Where does the idea originate that anyone who might recommend anything in an attempt to improve something, or possibly address an injustice of some sort, or even voice an opinion in a public forum (a right of the First Lady, I would think), suddenly inherits a mantle of responsibility for all the world's ills? 'If one can't fix everything, why bother and try to fix anything'.

In the first place, if anyone bothers to actually read what Laura Bush said, in anything similar to an unbiased manner, she has a strong point.... and one that's been made by many, many other folks. Primarily, that this sort of thing can be overdone with children... and it can. Absolutely no one has to agree with her, but she damned well has the right to say it. If you do some checking, you will find that MOST folks, who actually have children at home, tend to agree in large part with her.... and it is simply an opinion and recommendation from the First Lady of the United States. She has that right, and most folks realize it's NOT a mandate from the government, and that ultimately parents should, and will, make the actual decision.

I, for one, believe she is sincere in her interest for children, politics be damned. Are we in the United States become so cynical that every word we hear is judged to be of ulterior motive and worthy to be negatively critiqued? Phooey......

Randell

  

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hal9000Tue Sep-10-02 07:12 AM
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#51. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Randellx5 (Reply # 48)


          

No one has to read my posts, or any OT post if it disturbs them. I hardly think my posts are philosophical meanderings...but rather alternative perspectives based on information other than mainstream sources. If you feel that my dissenting with the majority opinion here is a slightly veiled reference to the majority's lack of intelligence, then you'll take offense on behalf of every person I don't agree with.

I don't like Bush. Both he, his father and most of the goons in his administration are liars and crooks. He was placed into the white house in the same manner as Kennedy. Virtually everything you see him, his wife or any of his administration do on TV is staged for political gain. If you wanna get all warm and fuzzy about orchestrated propaganda like that, go ahead...I don't.


  

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Randellx5Tue Sep-10-02 08:02 AM
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#53. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 51)
Tue Sep-10-02 08:05 AM

          

No, sorry... it's not the fact of dissension, it's the 'air of superior comprehension' with which it is dispersed... and the seeming conviction that your particular opinions happen to be saturated with 'truth', while anything to the contrary is inferior at best. One example below:

Tell you what...educate yourself and well talk more. In the mean time...you can start here


>> I don't like Bush. Both he, his father and most of the goons in his administration are liars and crooks. He was placed into the white house in the same manner as Kennedy. Virtually everything you see him, his wife or any of his administration do on TV is staged for political gain. If you wanna get all warm and fuzzy about orchestrated propaganda like that, go ahead...I don't.


And... the 'strawmen' you love to put in place, and then battle valiantly. Most of what you 'rebut' was never spoken in the first place. For instance, I've not said anything remotely concerning your statement just above, or anything about getting warm and fuzzy, I simply addressed the original subject. You set 'em up, and you knock 'em down, it's an old technique.... really not as impressive as it might seem. As you grow older, you may find the 'black and white' reality you see around you... doesn't exist. Lighten up a bit...

EDIT: Not to worry, your posts don't 'disturb' me.

Randell

  

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hal9000Tue Sep-10-02 08:19 AM
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#54. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Randellx5 (Reply # 53)


          

"Tell you what...educate yourself and well talk more. In the mean time...you can start here"

Cheap shot Randell. Why don't you include all of Pointman's innuendos while you're at it.

It's unfortunate that you equate my contributions as some kind of on-the-road carnival technique. I can assure you, that is not how their intended. And frankly I've just lost a degree of respect for you.

  

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Randellx5Tue Sep-10-02 09:37 AM
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#57. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 54)


          

>> Cheap shot Randell. Why don't you include all of Pointman's innuendos while you're at it.

Sorry, I simply used that statement as an example of how you seem to come across at times, not as an attempt to address the validity of whoever you were posting to.

>> It's unfortunate that you equate my contributions as some kind of on-the-road carnival technique. I can assure you, that is not how their intended.

Nothing of that nature was intended by me. I was simply saying you have a way of attributing beliefs and attitudes to other folks that were never placed in issue by them, and then responding to that(it can at times be a technique, but not on-the-road carnival). I don't question at all that your posts are a contribution, and have value. I do think you are a tad 'overzealous' in your opinions at times... they do sometimes tend to eliminate the possibility that any alternative could possibly be valid at all.

I have been impressed with, and enjoyed many things about your various posts, I hope I haven't given you the wrong impression of my opinion of you. You have much to offer, and I get the impression you are a very likable young(I assume young) man. I would only say again, your conviction that you are absolutely correct in all your beliefs comes across a little strongly at times. Do me one favor, go back and read all your posts on this thread with as neutral an attitude as possible, as someone might who just happened to run across the thread. Occasionally, where there's criticism, at least a very small portion of it may be warranted... but I am glad you post on the forum, and would really hate to have it otherwise.

I am speaking only for myself here, not representing anyone else, just giving you my opinion. No dog in this hunt at all.

>> And frankly I've just lost a degree of respect for you.

I have no reason to speak to that... it is entirely your decision, and I wouldn't disagree with your right to do so at all. At this point in my life, I pretty much know who I am... and who I am not.


Randell

  

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No_OneTue Sep-10-02 02:04 PM
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#58. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 51)


          

An interesting POV from a usually reliable source. My BS meter has been going off all day, I figured HAL9000 was busy again. I have a Fluke industrial model, and it may need recalibrating after reading all your posts above, I think the needle is bent around the peg

To begin with, there is no need to call me ignorant in any reply, I concede I am ignorant in this area; I will stipulate that you know more about delusional, harebrained theories about economic hegemony and world domination by the military-industrial complex and BIG BUSINESS than any ten people I know.
And I don't have the time or energy to shoot down the lies, half-truths and innuendo you post above, you have access to an unending supply, you can copy and paste faster than I can type. You live in a world of metaphors, here is one for you: You are pitching batting practice, I don't have the energy to put every one in the upper deck.

And a few specifics: letting Iraq import chlorine would be a terrific idea, then anyone who took a high school chemistry class could turn it into phosgene, what a great turn of events that would be.
The average GI who puts his life on the line when going to the various FUC's in the world today cares more about the people there than the government does, Saddam Hussein doesn't give a damn how many of his people die, as long as he can milk it for sympathy from assorted international do-gooders.

And I hate to be the one to tell you this, but the movie "The Matrix", it's FICTION. I know this for a fact, I looked on the case the DVD came in. Neo doesn't exist, there are no red pills and no blue pills (I checked with the pharmacist). If you want a pill to escape your version of reality, then he recommended Vitamin H.

  

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PointmanTue Sep-10-02 06:26 AM
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#49. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 47)


          

Well, Hal if you won't help us poor ol' undereducated folks out, at least tell us who you're parroting. Let me know when you do come up with all the right ideas at the right time. I'll hum Hail to the Chief in the background while you deliver your stirring discourse.


Pointman

  

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81 NewbeeTue Sep-10-02 06:54 AM
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#50. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Pointman (Reply # 49)


  

          

Hello Hal,I hope you will suffer this old mans effort to better understand where you are coming from.Early experiences in my life have led me to listen to all and form judgements slowly and cautiously.I usually, when interested, start by asking two questions.They are somewhat trivial sounding but help me to start understanding.I'd appreciate it you would answer these two for me.
1 What do you do for a living or are you retired from ?
2 What kind of car(s) do you drive? Year?
Thanks,
PS;You can ask whatever you wnat of me later (to be fair)

81 Newbee

  

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vitaltTue Sep-10-02 07:30 AM
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#52. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 50)


  

          

LOL....anyone been here...find yourself if you can...
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame55.html


PC911Racing The Gazette BBT Dubbers ExMadCows

Vitalt

Useful Team Info

  

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81 NewbeeTue Sep-10-02 08:40 AM
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#55. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to vitalt (Reply # 52)


  

          

Vitalt,This is a treasure.Perhaps we can have a contest on fitting all of us who respond to this into the proper box.I read most of them and find myself fitting into more than one.If you are honest with yourself it can be embarrassing and AMUSING.Thanks for posting it.It should tone down some of the posts.

81 Newbee

  

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vitaltTue Sep-10-02 09:30 AM
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#56. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 55)
Tue Sep-10-02 09:32 AM

  

          

yeah my reaction too....its kinda humbling if your honest with yourself...

check your pm box


PC911Racing The Gazette BBT Dubbers ExMadCows

Vitalt

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scaramoucheThu May-22-03 01:41 AM
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#66. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to Pointman (Reply # 36)


  

          

This is what I think


Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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baloTue Sep-10-02 03:35 PM
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#60. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 0)


          



Hal:Try reading this. It comes from the Middle East Media Research Institute.

Special Alert - No. 3
September 09, 2002 No.3

Iraq Calls for the Formation of Suicide Squads to Strike American Targets and Interests

An editorial in the Iraqi weekly Al-Iqtisadi , which is owned by Saddam Hussein's eldest son Uday, called for the formation of suicide squads to launch broad-based sabotage operations against the United States, its friends, and interests. <1>

As an introduction, the weekly highlighted the growing Arab, regional, and international opposition to American threats against Arab and Muslim countries, and Iraq, in particular. The following are excerpts from the article:

"...The United States practices international terrorism against the whole world. By doing so, it turns peoples and governments into hostages, thereby causing the suspension of international activities and generating fears and instability in the international domain. This conduct has similarities with Hitler and Nazism which led the world to a world war."

"...It is unlikely that the United Nations will establish an international tribunal to prosecute the U.S., but it is not difficult for any country to indict it internationally and to mobilize other countries to do so despite the ridiculous international decision that protects American forces from their crimes against others…"

"…The confrontation with the aggressors should transcend the means of condemnation and rejection, particularly in the Arab and Muslim street. They should use all means-and they are numerous-against the aggressors, including boycott, closing air and sea ports to civilian ships and airplanes that belong to the U.S. and its allies, striking their economic interests and establishments, and considering everything American as a military target, including embassies, installations, and American companies, and to create suicide/martyr squads to attack American military and naval bases inside and outside the region, and mine the waterways to prevent the movement of war ships... " <2>


----------------------------------------------------------------------
1] Al-Iqtisadi, September 5, 2002. The editorial was signed by Munthir 'Aref. It should be recalled that the leadership of the Ba'ath Socialist Party as far back as last April called to "hit" American interests in the Arab homeland, Al-Hayat, April 8, 2002.

<2> This report is excerpted from MEMRI's Iraq News Wire No. 9. For more on Iraq, visit: www.memri.org/iraq.html.









http://www.bobbalogh.com/


  

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81 NewbeeFri Sep-13-02 10:16 AM
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#64. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to balo (Reply # 60)


  

          

And so goes the world!
May it rest in peace!!!!!!!

30

81 Newbee

  

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hal9000Fri Sep-13-02 04:10 PM
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#65. "RE: OT - Quick, hide your children from reality!"
In response to balo (Reply # 60)


          

Congressman Ron Paul
U.S. House of Representatives
September 10, 2002

QUESTIONS THAT WON'T BE ASKED ABOUT IRAQ

Soon we hope to have hearings on the pending war with Iraq. I am concerned there are some questions that won’t be asked- and maybe will not even be allowed to be asked. Here are some questions I would like answered by those who are urging us to start this war.

1. Is it not true that the reason we did not bomb the Soviet Union at the height of the Cold War was because we knew they could retaliate?

2. Is it not also true that we are willing to bomb Iraq now because we know it cannot retaliate- which just confirms that there is no real threat?

3. Is it not true that those who argue that even with inspections we cannot be sure that Hussein might be hiding weapons, at the same time imply that we can be more sure that weapons exist in the absence of inspections?

4. Is it not true that the UN’s International Atomic Energy Agency was able to complete its yearly verification mission to Iraq just this year with Iraqi cooperation?

5. Is it not true that the intelligence community has been unable to develop a case tying Iraq to global terrorism at all, much less the attacks on the United States last year? Does anyone remember that 15 of the 19 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia and that none came from Iraq?

6. Was former CIA counter-terrorism chief Vincent Cannistraro wrong when he recently said there is no confirmed evidence of Iraq’s links to terrorism?

7. Is it not true that the CIA has concluded there is no evidence that a Prague meeting between 9/11 hijacker Atta and Iraqi intelligence took place?

8. Is it not true that northern Iraq, where the administration claimed al-Qaeda were hiding out, is in the control of our "allies," the Kurds?

9. Is it not true that the vast majority of al-Qaeda leaders who escaped appear to have safely made their way to Pakistan, another of our so-called allies?

10. Has anyone noticed that Afghanistan is rapidly sinking into total chaos, with bombings and assassinations becoming daily occurrences; and that according to a recent UN report the al-Qaeda "is, by all accounts, alive and well and poised to strike again, how, when, and where it chooses"

11. Why are we taking precious military and intelligence resources away from tracking down those who did attack the United States- and who may again attack the United States- and using them to
invade countries that have not attacked the United States?

12. Would an attack on Iraq not just confirm the Arab world's worst suspicions about the US-and isn't this what bin Laden wanted?

13. How can Hussein be compared to Hitler when he has no navy or air force, and now has an army 1/5 the size of twelve years ago, which even then proved totally inept at defending the country?

14. Is it not true that the constitutional power to declare war is exclusively that of the Congress? Should presidents, contrary to the Constitution, allow Congress to concur only when pressured by public opinion? Are presidents permitted to rely on the UN for permission to go to war?

15. Are you aware of a Pentagon report studying charges that thousands of Kurds in one village were gassed by the Iraqis, which found no conclusive evidence that Iraq was responsible, that Iran occupied the very city involved, and that evidence indicated the type of gas used was more likely controlled by Iran not Iraq?

16. Is it not true that anywhere between 100,000 and 300,000 US soldiers have suffered from Persian Gulf War syndrome from the first Gulf War, and that thousands may have died?

17. Are we prepared for possibly thousands of American casualties in a war against a country that does not have the capacity to attack the United States?

18. Are we willing to bear the economic burden of a 100 billion dollar war against Iraq, with oil prices expected to skyrocket and further rattle an already shaky American economy? How about an estimated 30 years occupation of Iraq that some have deemed necessary to "build democracy" there?

19. Iraq’s alleged violations of UN resolutions are given as reason to initiate an attack, yet is it not true that hundreds of UN Resolutions have been ignored by various countries without penalty?

20. Did former President Bush not cite the UN Resolution of 1990 as the reason he could not march into Baghdad, while supporters of a new attack assert that it is the very reason we can march into Baghdad?

21. Is it not true that, contrary to current claims, the no-fly zones were set up by Britain and the United States without specific approval from the United Nations?

22. If we claim membership in the international community and conform to its rules only when it pleases us, does this not serve to undermine our position, directing animosity toward us by both friend and foe?

23. How can our declared goal of bringing democracy to Iraq be believable when we prop up dictators throughout the Middle East and support military tyrants like Musharaf in Pakistan, who overthrew a democratically-elected president?

24. Are you familiar with the 1994 Senate Hearings that revealed the U.S. knowingly supplied chemical and biological materials to Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war and as late as 1992- including after the alleged Iraqi gas attack on a Kurdish village?

25. Did we not assist Saddam Hussein’s rise to power by supporting and encouraging his invasion of Iran? Is it honest to criticize Saddam now for his invasion of Iran, which at the time we actively supported?

26. Is it not true that preventive war is synonymous with an act of aggression, and has never been considered a moral or legitimate US policy?

27. Why do the oil company executives strongly support this war if oil is not the real reason we plan to take over Iraq?

28. Why is it that those who never wore a uniform and are confident that they won’t have to personally fight this war are more anxious for this war than our generals?

29. What is the moral argument for attacking a nation that has not initiated aggression against us, and could not if it wanted?

30. Where does the Constitution grant us permission to wage war for any reason other than self-defense?

31. Is it not true that a war against Iraq rejects the sentiments of the time-honored Treaty of Westphalia, nearly 400 years ago, that countries should never go into another for the purpose of regime change?

32. Is it not true that the more civilized a society is, the less likely disagreements will be settled by war?

33. Is it not true that since World War II Congress has not declared war and- not coincidentally- we have not since then had a clear-cut victory?

34. Is it not true that Pakistan, especially through its intelligence services, was an active supporter and key organizer of the Taliban?

35. Why don't those who want war bring a formal declaration of war resolution to the floor of Congress?

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2002/cr091002.htm

  

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