Hi,

I was wondering how much pressure is normally needed to put the retention clip in place? That thing was notoriously difficult to get in place. I've taken all care not to apply pressure to the heatsink itself, but only to the retention clip. Boy I was trying to apply a huge amount of pressure to get that retention clip in place.

For now, that's just sitting on my table, because part of the thermal phase changing compound peeled off along with the protective plastic tab. So for now, I'll have to wait till I order a new thermal pad to install on the back of the haetsink.

Xin

According to AMD - 'To install the clip, typically requires 12 to 24 pounds of force.'

I know my Volcano took a lot more than the old Coolermaster it replaced.

haha..I have no idea what 24 lbs of pressure feels like. But it probably took a lot more than that. I did a few "mock" installations, with he plastic protective tab in place, and after applying quite a bit of pressure was able to get it in on there. But as I said, the plastic tab took a chunk of the thermal pad with it (dang it) so now assemlby will have to wait while I get a new pad.

Xin Li

>haha..I have no idea what 24 lbs of pressure feels like.

He heh - Me neither!
But ya did ask

Haven't done any of the new AMDs, but I remember some P3 heatsinks clips that were like what you describe. Took all the pressure I could get on it to go on.

Hi Xin Li,

Try pushing down on a bathroom scale with your thumb or index finger till you hit 24lbs. this should be close.


Bigbear.

Yep, just did that. I think I was applying about twice that pressure. But that seems to be ok according to everyone else.

Xin Li

24 lbs of force is enough to break 2 kneecaps.

24 lbs is about 4 M16A1's unloaded.

As far as force goes, my Volcano 9 took at least 30 lbs of force to get on.. the worst ever was one I built for a friend, I think it was some kind of ThermalRight or maybe Vantec..I had to use about half my body weight (so like 100lbs) to get the damn clip to go all the way down... but it worked ok, I've never cracked a core.. yet..

That's what I was afraid of doing. I was trying to take extreme care not to put hte pressure on the heat sink itself and crack the die. But as I said, it took quite a bit of pressure to get those latches in place. I just hope I didn't crack anything. After this, it's smooth sailing..

Xin Li

Am I correct in thinking that unless the new tape is a AMD approved piece of tape that the warranty is void anyway? Hmm. Personally I would scrape that thing off, lap it, and slap on some Arctic Silver and go for it. I would upgrade from the stock HS/fan while at it too. Global Win FSP82(up to 2600+) is big, quiet, and goes on easy. The newer Volcanos have nice clips too.

The toughest one I ever put on was the one one the system I am on, a solid copper Vantec monster.

Xinli, my Volcano 9 took most of my body weight to get clamped down! I actually broke out in a sweat!

Jazzgirl

Jazzgirl

See..body weight is a good thing..and girls are always so obsessed with losing weight

Xin Li

You can pick up new Thermal pads at CompUSA, Radio Shack, and several other general electronic sales places.

All that pressure on the pad before removing the covering tape may have been the cause of it's failure when pulled off.

Ed W.

You are probably right. I could see outline indentation the core made against the thermal paste. I"ll pick up a batch of those from CompUSA tonight. Also, how much leeway do I have to move the heatsink once it makes contact with the core? the AMD video pretty much said it was a one shot deal. Once the heatsink makes contact with the core, you can't move it again. But I may need to shift it just a bit to make sure the retention clip is aligned with the notches.

Xin Li

The whole idea is to set the HSF as close to straight down on the cpu as you are able. Atatch the plain side first, then pull up on it at the same time pulling over and down on the clip side. Then, if you are Godzilla, latch it by hand. Me, I use a flat bladed (wider than the latch) screwdriver and put it in the slot in the clip and jam it down. I also put two or three layers of tape on the mobo traces below ground zero in case of a , haha slip

Xin,

You will have a little leeway. The best thing to do before you do the actual mount, is just sit it on the core with no pressure, move it where ever you need to match the slots, then REMEMBER that location, remove the tape and put it right back where it was. If you have a nerdy chick with you, she can hold it in position when you are putting the clip on.

Good luck, you can do it.

Ed W.

Well, after an hour of fiddling with the darn thing (shameful I know), I think I got the heatsink installed properly. Once I sat the thing down, I still had to wiggle it by about 3 mm to get the clip to line up properly. Hopefully that didn't screw anything up. Everything else has been relatively easy. Now I just gotta plug everything in....

<praying>
Please don't burn up...
Please don't burn up...
</praying>

Xin Li

Good job Zin, make sure you come back and let us know how you made out.

Ed W.

If you combine tpikdave and Ed W.'s posts you've got a pretty good technique. It's important that the blade be wider than the clip, and that the shaft be large enough not to bend - you want the force applied going into the clip, not being wasted by bending the shaft of the screwdriver. I think the best grip to use on the screwdriver is the one shown in the AMD install pdf. Make a fist with the screwdriver in it like you're going to stab something with a downward motion. Angle your fist back at the wrist - that's the best grip and angle to do the job. You sort of straighten your wrist while suing a little shoulder to keep it going (guide the blade tip with your off hand.) DM out weighs me by 50LBs and my hsf is supposed to be pretty stiff (ThermalRight) but it goes on pretty easy. The trick is to get in the right position, with the right grip, and the right tool, and sort of Kung Fu your energy down into that blade tip.

Call the clip side the "bottom" with it toward you. Move to the side and watch how the angle of the clip changes as you move the hs left and right. It's possible if you didn't have it centered you'd have to apply more than normal pressure. Trouble is, you can only see one axis at a time when you're installing it - if you're off one way, the clip isn't centered on the lugs - off the other way and the angle of one side of the clip is off from the other so I assume uneven pressure is being applied (the design of the spring should prevent that, but who knows), and it may like I said, increase the necessary pressure to hook it.

I try to find some "landmarks" on the board for one direction, and take a last second glance at the other to get in all nice and centered. If you're using paste, and you mess it up putting it down (you don't want to be moving it around afterward) it's easy to just start over.

I've found that one of the best tools is one of those screwdrivers with the magnetic socket.. just remove any head you put in there, and its exactly the right size to snugly fit around that doohickey thingamajig that pokes out from the back of the clip.. plus it works nicely if you are right up against the PSU (which I usually just remove if its there anyway).

I used a screwdriver with a 12 foot cheaterbar when I latched my last heatsink.
Seriously, they can be a pain. If you're gonna break something when building a computer, it is gonna be when you try to latch that HS.

Ok,

at this point, the heatsink is installed (properly I hope), and the mobo has been mounted in the case. All the power cables and such have been connected, though there are probably a few plugged in backwards. my 3 sticks of RAM have also been installed. At this point, when i flip on the switch on the back of the power supply, the stand by power light comes on on the motherboard.

The video card is not installed. I thought the damn thing can with a built in card, but it doesn't. And my ancient AGP card won't plug into the new AGP 8x slot (which surprised me.. i didn't know they changed the slot). So now, with no vid card, when I turn the darn thing on, all 4 fans start spinning (two chasis fans, power supply fan, cpu fan). But that's about it. No beeps, no post, obviously no video.

I noticed that my Power LED light also isn't on. That's probably because I plugged in the power LED connector backwards. Gonna have to change that tomorrow morning. I was expecting some beeps or some kind of indication of a missing video card. But maybe my speaker cables are also plugged in backwards.

After leaving it on for about 30-40 seconds, I turned the thing off. Unplugged it. I hovered my hand over the heatsink, didn't feel particularly warm. Then I touched the heat sink. It wasn't really warm or anything. Then I tried to feel the CPU underneath the heatsink, and that didn't feel warm either.

So I"m hoping that the nonresponse that I"m getting from the new box is explained away by a missing video card, and maybe a few flipped power LEDs. I'll keep you posted on furhter developments. First, gotta find a PCI vid card...

Edit:

My mom's old machine has a PCI vid card. But it's screwed in so tight and the screw is very much worn out that it's impossible to get out. Maybe I"ll put the Voodoo 3500 from my current machine into my new one.

Also, my ass is pretty much safe from a burnt out CPU. Because when I first ripped a part of the thermal pad off, I called NewEgg and got approved for an RMA for my CPU. The RMA simply said it was a damaged CPU. So if I ended up burning my CPU, I'll just ship it back and try again But I hope that's not the case.

Xin Li

Xin Li

Why won't the AGP card you have fit into the slot? I've never heard of that before.. did you make sure you pushed back the white retaining thingy that is on the right side of the AGP slot? I've put in a 3 year old ATI AGP card into boards that are AGP8x with no probs at all.

Yep, that white thing has been removed. The problem is that on the slot, there is a break, but on the card where that break is supposed to be, there isn't one. And on the off chance that I was delusional earlier, I tried to fit it into an PCI slot..and no go.. SO wierd..someone doesn't want me to put this computer together.

Xin Li

So I'm not insane. I compared the AGP slot in my old box with the 8x slot in my new box (and I did verfiy that what I was looking at was the AGP slot), the one in my new box was 30% longer. They are totally different

Xin Li

I think some slots are keyed for 1.5V, but I thought it was mostly Intel boards that did that.

That must be it. I do remember my mobo manual saying that it only accepted 1.5V AGP cards...

Xin Li

So I found a better screwdriver and was able to put my mom's working PCI vid card into my box. Plugged it in and turned it on. The Monitor went from Amber to Green, indicating it was receiving a signal. But nothing else was happening. No post, no sound. Just a blank screen. Any ideas?

Edit:

Reversed the leads on the Speaker lead, as well as the Chasis Power light lead. so now the power light comes on when I turn it on. Still no sound from the speaker though.

Xin Li

No clips, just screw it in.
5924.jpg

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

According to ASUS all of their mobos now have overheating protection. It reads the temperature directly from the cpu in hardware, and if it gets to hot, the mobo will automatically cut power to the CPU. So maybe that's what's happening. but I have no way of testing that. I have no way of testing anything since I don't have another mobo or a CPU. All my other computers run Intel processors.

Update:

Well, I'm competely out of ideas. It's not even giving me a post message. Nothing comes out of the speakers. According to the manual, even if the CPU has failed, or has burnt out, it should still give me some indication. I just don't have the tools here to debug the thing.

Xin Li

First, a computer can not boot without a video card, the power supply will shut down for lack of a power good signal.

Other things that will prevent booting:

Bad CPU

CPU fan not plugged into the correct header connection on the motherboard.

Bad memory

Motherboard shorting to the case because of a incorrectly located standoff.

Power supply voltage selector in the wrong position.

No hard drive connected.

To minimize the possibilities, remove all cards except the video card. Remove all but one memory DIMM, connect only one drive (the boot drive), remove all board hold down screws and check beneath it to make sure every standoff lines up with a screw hole in the motherboard and there are no extras. (there are usually nine standoffs used. Temporarily place some newspaper under the board to insulate it from he case and try to boot. If it boots that way, you had something shorting it out. If you use a PCI video card instead of AGP, make sure that is reflected in the BIOS settings.

Reversed connections for LED's, Speakers, or power switch connections, can not have any affect on the ability od a computer to boot.

Shelly

>First, a computer can not boot without a video card, the
>power supply will shut down for lack of a power good signal.

Vid card is installed. Old PCI card. But should work.

>Bad CPU

Maybe... Assuming the original CPU was good, and I somehow overheated the thing, it should be giving me high frequency beeps according to the Mobo

>CPU fan not plugged into the correct header connection on the
>motherboard.

CPU fans is plugged into the right socket. Just checked.

>Bad memory
>

Will check on this. Although the RAM I got was recommended by Crucial. I will do the ram test, as you suggested.

>Motherboard shorting to the case because of a incorrectly
>located standoff.

Will check on this.

>
>Power supply voltage selector in the wrong position.

The red switch on the back of the power supply is keyed for 115 V.

>No hard drive connected.

Hard drive connected, and is spinning up when the system power is on.

>To minimize the possibilities, remove all cards except the
>video card. Remove all but one memory DIMM, connect only one
>drive (the boot drive),

Done.

>remove all board hold down screws and
>check beneath it to make sure every standoff lines up with a
>screw hole in the motherboard and there are no extras.

I'll give that a try and see what happens.

>If you use a PCI video card instead of AGP, make sure
>that is reflected in the BIOS settings.

Can't even get to BIOs. The screen is totally blank.

>Reversed connections for LED's, Speakers, or power switch
>connections, can not have any affect on the ability od a
>computer to boot.

I tried reversing the LEDs for the speakers because I was hoping that it would make the spakers work and give me some indication as to what was wrong.

Ok, I read the manual a little more carefully, and apparently this Mobo has the vocal post message feature. So I hooekd up my speakers to the headphone jack on the Mobo, and I booted the system without memory. Out came the vocal post message "No Memory Installed." I put the memory back in and rebooted again. This time, no error message. But it doesn't post either.

When I removed the Video card the system gave the post code "System faield VGA test".

One thing i did notice was that when I took the RAM out, the power on switch seems to be on the 5 second delay setting, where you have to hold it down for 5 seconds to turn it off.

However, when the RAM was put back in, I wss able to turn off the system immediately upon pressing the button.. Very wierd stuff.

Edit:

Valid Vocal Post Codes are:

"No CPU Installed"
"System Failed CPU Test"
"System Failed Memory Test"
"System failed VGA Test"
"System failed due to CPU over clocking"
"NO Keyboard Detected"
"No Floppy disk detected"
"No IDE Hard disk detected"
"CPU Temperature too high"
"CPU Fan failed"
"CPU Voltage out of range"
"System completed Power On Self Test"
"Computer now booting from operating system"

Xin Li

Tried the newspaper under the Mobo technique that Shelly suggested. No cigar. Same problem. I"m trying to get a hold of an ASUS tech support personnel. But no luck yet.

Xin Li

I think you should find a known good 1.5V AGP card and give it a try.

That's part of the problem here in georgia.. I'm basically in seclusion. All I have here are 3 really old computers on the intel platform. One of them is running an ISA video card..imagine that. And then I have this system, and a screwdriver I may have to swallow my pride and take it into a store and have them look at it because they'd ahve more equipment. Man....going into a store...I should just put myself into voluntary exile from the tech community.

Xin Li

It's OK, xinli... we all must sin at one time or another. I'm sure you can go to confession when you buy something from newegg again

Just be sure you don't tell them about your fancy new job They'll probably write it down and retell it at the DCSGC (Dipshit Computer Store Guy Convention), or wherever they hang out.

Hi Xin Li,

The slot is for 1.5v AGP cards.

It does "sound" as if you have the speaker connected the wrong way round. No video card, should give you one long and three short beeps.


Edit sorry somehow missed post #24

Jim

Although speakers are polarized devices(+,-) they will function no matter how they are connected. The sound may be somewhat distorted if it is connected backwards, but it will still work.

Perhaps I should have said misconnected,

Jim

it should go on with the maximum amount of force that you are able to apply on it, if not, then you got the wrong heatsink or you're too weak

Hi,

So whoever suggested that I get a new video card was right. I got a cheapo AGP 32MB card and plugged it in, and it works. so the system is posting and all is good...almost.. I went into BIOS and noticed the CPU temperature at 110F. Then within the course of several minutes, the temperature rose to 116F. At that point, I shut down my system. I think maybe the heatsink isn't properly installed, or maybe the included heatsink and fan isn't up to the task. So this leads to a few questions:

1) What temperature should a Athlon 2700 typically run at?
2) What heatsink solution do you recommend? I remember someone recommended a Zalman heatsink.

Another question is that my chasis is a little wierd. It came with a bunch of these tabs (see attachment). I am guessing I'll need to install those when I mount my CDROM drive. But I am having a little trouble figuring out how to install it. I screwed it on to the side of my CDROM drive and I tried sliding the drive in from the front, and it always gets stuck before it slides all the way in. Any pointers would be appreciated. I am sure it's just some sutpid trick that i"m not seeing. Thanks.

Xin Li

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

On those you have to use the countersunk heads that when screwed in fit flush with the surface or they get hung up on the case when sliding them in.You will have to figure out what hole to use to make your cd-rom fit flush with your faceplate ,a little trial and error is required at least when I did it lol.

Hi,

This is how I have the tab screwed into the side of my CDROM right now (Clip1). And when I try to slide it into he drive bay, the metallic part of the clip/tab is getting stuck on the case where that big hole is (Clip2)

Xin Li

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)

The slides attach to the CDR with the springy clip towards the front of the CDR. The spring tabs face out from the sides of the CDR. They then snap in place when the CDR is slid back into position. You just have to pick the right holes so when it snaps in place, it is flush with the front of the case.

Edit: Mine have all had an L or R stamped into them so you know left and right, facing the front of the computer case.

Ed W.

I'm too lazy to look up what that chip should run at (there's smallish differences in AMDs) but 116ºF is 46ºC, so it's sort of preternaturally normal I'd say.

I noticed my CPU was actually underclocked. So I set the core freqency correctly at 166, so the CPU actually ran at 2700. Now the temp is 134F. Is that normal? And remember this is just in BIOS, I haven't even started taxing the system yet. I wonder what kind of temperature I'd get if I started running a divx movie on that, or started encoding DVDs to Divx.

Xin Li

Xin,

An AMD ATHLON XP 2700+ runs at 2.16GHZ, not 2.7 GHZ. The 2700 is just a number AMD uses to equate it to an Intel at 2.7 GHZ. I would set it back so it is running at 2.16 GHZ.

Ed W.

I think the amd mobos are designed to show the XP rated numbers. When the COre frequency was set at 100 (default), the system was reporting an Athlon XP 1500+, and my mobo was comlaining "CPU failed due to overclocking." When i set it to 166, it stopped complaining and properly recognize my CPU as an Athlon 2700+. so I think I got that part right.

Xin Li

That's within reason, but a little high for what a lot of home builders would see. I believe you're using a stock (retail) hsf, and a thermal pad as well. Kind of interestingly, I added up in my head what improvement you might see with a) better case cooling; b) better hsf and c) better coupling of hsf by way of a good paste like Arctic Silver. I figured about 7ºC. Then I went to check out this chart.

I don't know how to relate what I see to what it says, but I run around 14ºC cooler than the "average" number for my cpu. Take a look at yours and figure in the 7ºC I mentioned Weird. Edit: Yours is about 56ºC right now if you didn't know.

Anyhow, I wouldn't really worry about it, and if you were, I'd look at case cooling, and remounting the hsf with some Arctic Silver (follow their directions closely if you do - less is much better than more.)

Yeah mine is running at about 56/57C right now, with very little load (just looking at BIOS info). My case has two reer mounted fans right now. I'm also going to look into properly bundling my cables inside the case. Right now it's kind of messy, and that might be obstructing air flow. Won't make much of a difference, but having neatly bundled wires have other benefits too.

I"m still trying to figure out how to get that CDROM mounted. so embarassing.. I'll keep you all updated. Thanks for the info.

Xin Li

My A7N8X runs anywhere from 42-51C. It's not unusual for them to run a tad hotter than the Intel CPU's. Your temps are fine

Jazzgirl

Jazzgirl

Zin,

You are at a very safe temp there. The max temp is 90C, and most run from 40 to 60C, so relax.

Those should be side rails you are trying to mount. Some mount with screws, and some have small tabs that slip into the screw holes in the side of a CDRom, etc, with no screws needed. Check inside the opening, there should be a guide rail on the sides of the opening that the slide, slides into. Check it out and let us know.

Ed W.

Hi, I will attempt to install windows (once I get the CDROM mounted) and I'll run a few apps and see how the temperature goes. If it reaches a steady state that's within that range, I'll leave it be. Otherwise, I'll get a bigger heatsink and fan. Thanks for the help.

Xin Li

cdrom mounted. Well, being the stupid, stupid fool that I am, I mounted the clips on backwards. So after realizing that stupid mistake, everything went well. But of course why would this ever get easier? Because I forgot my bootable copy of XP. I have a copy of .NET Server, but it's not bootable..so I'll have to find some round about way to do this...sigh...such stupidity on my part.

Xin Li

>You are at a very safe temp there. The max temp is 90C, and most run from 40 to 60C, so relax.
That is not really the case, unless the mobo is specically reading AMD's internal sensor. Most report chip edge temps, with a chip edge temp the cpu will be long gone before reaching 90c. Also at 60c (chip edge) most AMD rigs will become unstable.

And if the bottom of your HS is smooth (work it with some 1500 grit sandpaper) the difference between the fancy Arctic Silver and Radio Shack's $1.99 paste is 1-2 degrees at best.

Xinli, I am just now scrolling through the messages again. Those tabs in the picture are the drive rails for your CD-CDRW/DVD drives.

Jazzgirl

Jazzgirl

There certainly needs to be a lot of pressure applied when the HS is installed. You should also take care before you attempt to lock it in place that it is lined up correctly. You dont want to put it on crooked and you need to make sure you have it on the right way. Putting the HSF on is one of the things that needs to be done with extra care, because if you screw it up you can have BIG time problems. Ive done it a few times but even still I always read the instructions again before I do it....just to make sure. You dont want to mess it up. Its really not the toughest thing to do in the world but it surely needs to be done right. Make sure you have it clamped in place correctly on both sides and that it is making contact before you fire it up.

Specs
Garbru

Cool.

Amd has video's showing you how to do it.


Processor and Heatsink Installation Videos
<http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/TechnicalResources/0,,30_182_869_4348%5E6678,00.html>

Processor Installation
Heatsink Selection
Heatsink Installation
Heatsink Removal & Re-Use
Thermal Pad or Paste?

Hi,

I just wanted to thank everyone who has helped me through this process. Building this system certainly turned out to be more eventfaul than I had anticipated. I actually learned a fwe things, which was very cool. As of 4:59am EST, my new system is up and running. I got Windows .NET Enterprise Server loaded and was able to migrate over all my old emails, contacts, files. Everything seems to be working well. The CPU temperature is holding steady at 58 - 70 degrees Celcius (0% Load vs 100% load) I don't see cooling as a problem. It's pretty rare that I'll load the CPU to 95%. But I tried encoding a Divx just to see how far I can push it.

Going to do one last round of testing and tinkering. Should be done by tomorrow night and I hope to get back to my routine of reading this forum regularly.

Xin Li

Experience is a good thing....just keep an eye on that 70 degrees....60 would be much better.

Enjoy it now.

Ed W.

I would have to agree that 70 is high. I get squeamish if my systems get close to 60.

- Jeff

You could dl prime95 and let it run for a few days to stress it.

http://www.mersenne.org/freesoft.htm

Scroll down to Step 1. for the dl link if you want it.