Can someone explain to me why they believe what they do and are bashing Firefox here lately in the forum? I want to understand where you are coming from and why you think Firefox to be such a bad thing, and/or why you think using firefox is spreading lies.

Considered this a technical question. However, if it becomes to much of a heated debate recommend moving to the OT section.

Not me!





Bow to the Fox !

LilJoe

Never saw any posts bashing FF. I've been using it exclusively recently. Don't find it any faster than IE and never bothered about security aspect, but I like the configurability (themes, extensions etc).
I still use IE on certain sites.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

Darren's sig:

Jim.

I haven't seen any posts on the subject but have seen Darrens sig which is why I assume you ask. You'd have to ask him (not sure why you didn't just address this post to him).

I'm another one who hasn't noticed any bashing. I've used it before and liked it, but for my uses it wasn't any better than IE. So I just stick with IE.

MSU

Yawn.... Plenty of Microsoft IE bashers ...

Maybe we should startup a club (or support group) for them

JIM

>Yawn.... Plenty of Microsoft IE bashers ...
>
> Maybe we should startup a club (or support group)
>for them

We don't need a support group. Thanks just the same. After all we have IE and we're damned happy with it. LOL

Jim.

"Firefox bashing"? How dare they! I suppose you're talking about my sig? Don't let it ruffle your tail feathers, Robin. Since when did you become the sig police? Maybe I get a check from Microsoft.
Anyway, I saw the graphic and liked it. The reason I liked it so much, is because I despise the way the Mozilla Foundation tries to push Firefart down everyone's throat.

Just a few of their promotional tatics...

Write a letter or send an email to a computer magazine extolling the virtues of using Firefox. PC World can be reached at letters@pcworld.com or by snail mail at Letters, PC World, 501 2nd St. #600, San Francisco, CA 94107. PC Magazine can be reached at pcmag@ziffdavis.com or by snail mail at Letters, PC Magazine, 28 East 28th St, NY, NY 10016-7930. Mac Addict can be reached at plugs@macaddict.com. MacWorld can be reached at letters@macworld.com.

---

It all looks like desperation to me.

I've tried Firefox many times, and I see nothing earth-shattering about it. I even have it install on my system. As a matter of fact, I use it to see how many pages I can break.
Seriously, I've been using IE for 10 years. It has served me well, so I see no reason to change. Perhaps the old adage "You can't teach an old dog new tricks" rings true.

BTW, the lies are about FF spreading false security.
There are still known vulnerabilities...

MFSA 2005-54 Javascript prompt origin spoofing.
MFSA 2005-48 Same-origin violation with InstallTrigger callback.
MFSA 2005-46 XBL scripts ran even when Javascript disabled.
MFSA 2005-32 Drag and drop loading of privileged XUL.
MFSA 2005-24 HTTP auth prompt tab spoofing.
MFSA 2005-23 Download dialog source spoofing.
MFSA 2005-22 Download dialog spoofing using Content-Disposition header.
MFSA 2005-18 Memory overwrite in string library.
MFSA 2005-17 Install source spoofing with user:pass@host.
MFSA 2005-13 Window Injection Spoofing.
MFSA 2005-04 Secure site lock can be spoofed using view-source:
MFSA 2005-03 Secure site lock can be spoofed by a binary download.
MFSA 2005-01 Link opened in new tab can load local file.

  

You mean like Microsoft tries to push Internet Explorer down everyone's throat? Or would those tactics be even worse?

You've been using IE for 10 years eh? 10 years... remember what a piece of shit it was back then?



I think you're just a sore loser, myself.

Grogan

Yeah...it was a piece of shit back in '95.

"Sore loser"? With only an estimated 5.69% of web surfers using FF, I'm not on the losing side. Am I a "sore looser" because I like using IE? Because I have it set up like I want it and don't want to change?
Anyway, It's just a goddamn sig! If anyone wants to bash IE, go ahead...I won't cry.

Yes, a sore loser in that anyone could have even a few percent without being called "liars" or criticized for their rather benign promotional tactics when Microsoft has engaged in absolutely reprehensible practices to force IE down everyone's throat. They are damned lucky that software companies aren't liable for their products. If they were manufacturing goods as faulty as IE they'd have been sued out of existence long ago.

Sure, it's just a sig. One that I just happen to find offensive.

Grogan

There. I sure as hell don't want to offend anybody.
This is bullshit.

Well, I didn't mean for you to take it down and nor was I expecting that when I said it offended me. I probably should not have used that word. I was not thinking clearly. Obviously it irked me though, which I never have any reservations about showing.

Oh Hell, what I really mean to say is I'm sorry.

Grogan

Me too...sorry. Really, the only reason I displayed that sig was to chap some asses...especially Wakko's. Damnit...there I go again. I'm just kidding Wakko.

I had nothing against your sig, Darren, I was just wondering where you were getting your information and why you had your perspective.

Thats how you should've started this thread Just asked Darren rather than "mentioning no names" but making it obvious you were talking about his sig.

Darren isn't the only person. Leaving it open as I did, left it open for all the persons that I've seen with anti Firefox beliefs to respond. I can't name them all, and I wasn't going to try to single anyone out or put them on the spot light causing any ill feelings to anyone in this crowd

I really do hope that Darren reverts back to his signature as he wished to express himself. It was not my intent to prevent anyone from expressing themselves or their opinions, but to bring it all to light and understand things better.

"Tell me and I'll forget. Show me and I'll remember. Involve me and I'll learn."

Darren, I wasn't specifically targetting you, but you are one that I've seen increasingly slam firefox.

Last I checked on Securiteam's website, there are 588 Vulnerabilites still in IE. No they aren't the word of God, nor do I expect the number to be accurate. However, it is a good indication of how LAX MS has been to address vulnerabilities, even considering how they only fix one vulnerability in a patch instead of the full set of the exploit potential. They tend to turn a blind eye to what they think is beyond the initial exploit code. The behavior is not indicative to IE only, its all MS products that suffer this methodology.

Firefox/Mozilla actually fixes their problems as soon as they can. Its not a nice transition, but Firefox is still a more secure browser. Its not my word or evaluation of the product, thats USTRANSCOM's analysis of all of the available products. Dont even think of belittling the people here, cause these people would bury you in a heart beat regarding security technology and securing technology.

So the problem I have is when I see comments and signatures bashing something out of their educated believes, I want to know why they believe what they believe. However, I also want the oportunity to rebuke and explain why I believe in what I believe.

This is probably no better than a Windows vs *nix argument. Everyone is going to have their favorites, and will valiantly defend their opinions/perspectives of what they know/believe.

I just wanted to understand why. And in that understanding, I hope to gain more incite into what I believe in.

Sorry if I come off defense or like I'm attacking. Kinda hard to write neutral when you do have a stance. Its not my intent to do either.

Actually thats the first time, I'd looked up their "Spread the word" tactics. Can't say its desperation, but good marketting. Hell if they can get users to do that kind of stuff out of pocket without additional cost to themselves, more power to them. Myself, I'm not that free with my money or property to feel that I need to spread the word in any other fashion than word of mouth or maybe provide a copy via a USB drive (you copy it off and give my back my drive damn it!).

The marketting behind those comments don't surprise me considering its a "free" browser. They have no revenue that I'm aware of being generated by the browser to support mass marketting. As far as I can recall, its still only being funded only for development, not sales.

The key problem I've always had with IE is that everyone claims its also "free". However, when I take into consideration that it is being rammed down my throat when I buy Windows, that its cost is integrated into the whole package of the OS, that MS has integrated it so thoroughly that its very difficult to make the OS work as intended without it, and that the bugs and vulnerabilities, that I'm aware of, are typically inappropriately addresssed by Microsoft.

I'm not an MS hater. I love MS, it gives my job its longevity and secures my position for a long time to come.

With some, the thought that other software is gaining momentum is just too much for them to bear. Sometimes they are generally insecure... Microsoft is all they've known so they rebuke everything else. They don't want to see change. Pathetic, really.

Clinging to stagnant, fragile and dangerous technology and running all kinds of silly utilities just to stay safe on the Web and not even acknowledging there's anything wrong with that is the real lie.

In this case I believe that the "lie" they are referring to is that they disbelieve the download statistics when in fact the number of copies installed may far surpass what goes through the Mozilla servers. It's a very petty jab.

I know many people in this town alone that use Firefox and have never downloaded it or installed it themselves. I've personally converted quite a few people who no longer call me for expensive spyware cleanups. Also, it's hosted for download on other Web sites (like mine, for example) and Mozilla doesn't get any credit for the download in that case either. Then there are people who build their own firefox binaries from sources, like Linux vendors who then distribute them or people who build optimized Firefox binaries for Windows and Mac OSX. These don't show up in the statistics either. It's Free Software (freedom to distribute, freedom to modify), and most users don't realize the significance of that.

Grogan

Insecure? Not me. But I do have one of those "against the grain" personalities.

Can I ask how you've secure you're installations?

This is an open forum, we are free to praise or bash any software that we want. Both the bashers and the praisers are wrong, depending upon who is do the reading. This is America, get use to criticism, or go run and hide. I used Firefox and liked it, but it was "too cute" for my tastes. I prefer the fresh clean feel of Opera that says, "I mean business." But that does not make me right or wrong, it is just my preference. Good grief, with all of the gazillions of software programs out there, AV, browser, firewall, email, etc., we will never agree on anything -- SO WHAT!?

Acadia

Opera: Think outside the Fox.

This is the Internet. It's not America.

Hey! Are you promoting Opera? Shame, tsk, tsk.

I believe, but am not sure, that, if anything, the Internet is even more free and open than America.

Promoting Opera? Aaahh, may seem like it, I just feel like the stuckup far right of the FF religion should be made aware of other possibilities. Me, I can even see why some people would still prefer IE to any other browser!!

Acadia

Opera: Think outside the Fox.

>I believe, but am not sure, that, if anything, the Internet
>is even more free and open than America.

True if you equate freedom with anarchy. The internet reminds me of the old American west where some towns knew no laws. In Texas it was said, "West of the Pecos there is no law; west of El Paso, there is no God."

Shelly

I should rephrase that to be "freedom of speech". I know, I know, we are supposed to have that in America, but sometimes I really wonder ...

Acadia

Opera: Think outside the Fox.

As do I. Not sure what America I live in any more.

The Internet is a very free environment. Sometimes, the problem with freedom is that everyone is so quick to remind of theirs.

I'm just criticizing, even ridiculing the rationale behind the image in that signature. I'm as free to do that as Darren is to display it. As free as the Mozilla Foundation is to promote their free software. None of that changes.

Wakko just wanted to understand the reasoning more than anything and specifically stated that.

Grogan

Gosh .... all this heat over a godamn browser(s) !!

I personally use Opera (and Avant for sites that block Opera). I've tried FF but find fiddling with extensions to much fuss just to get it to work like Opera does out of the box, but, hey ho, I don't mind what anyone uses as long as it is strapped down to prevent spread of viruses etc.

Live and let live guys.

Tone
Tone

Yeah I know, and its why I suggested this might need to be moved to the OT topic.

Definitely have a live and let live policy on most software concerns, except what lives within our network. However, always looking for more information and incite on what we use.

incite = insight I presume? or is it incite as in to provoke?

Vijay

I believe you are correct. Spell check doesn't catch grammer mistakes

Unfortunately too late for me to correct now, won't let me. Time expired.

Excuse me, I want to interate one more time. I am not here to pick a fight, I'm not here to put one against the other.

I just want to understand your perspectives.

Bow to the Fox.

LilJoe

I have all 3 browsers installed on this computer and they coexist with out any problems. I use Explorer when I need to, or Firefox when a link will not work in Ex. Now I can use Opera to check things when Ex. and FF just aren't what I want to use. Grow up guys, they all have features that any one can use with out starting World War III
Daylilydayzed
Daylilies are the Lord's smiles, new one every day.

For our use, user useability is a considering factor. However, the security impact is by far more important in our environment. Its why I asked these questions, trying to gather more information.

One of the things about Firefox that has me scratching my head...I use
Gmail as my default email, and when I come across a news story that I want to send to someone, I click "File / Send Link" and click "Send", and the entire Firefox browser closes! Didn't used to do that...but has been doing it this past week or so. Not sure why. Gmail is beta, and
maybe that's why...but why close Firefox?

I'm sorry if this post is inappropriate since it actually deals with the
original post.

DavyWavy -

I think Firefox is terrific. I use it almost exclusively. One thing that drives me batty about IE is writing CSS webpages for it. 95% of the time when I have a problem with a CSS page, it is with IE. Mozilla/Firefox and Opera will work great and look identical but IE will give a fit over something or another.

On the flip side, I have noticed that Moz/FF will crash on occasion when refreshing a page using Sun Java. Although, that might be a Java problem instead of a Moz/FF problem.

What do you mean he's the Doctor? Doctor Who?

Web coding is always going to be an issue. Microsoft has its own design templates and tend to ignore the W3C standards. I do know recently MS has been bullying its way to make its design part of the W3C standards, but I don't know how that endeavor has panned out.


W3C = World Wide Web Consortium
http://www.w3.org/

copy and paste from the about section:
The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) is an international consortium where Member organizations, a full-time staff, and the public work together to develop Web standards. W3C's mission is:

To lead the World Wide Web to its full potential by developing protocols and guidelines that ensure long-term growth for the Web.

As I have understood it, its pretty much the defacto standard for WWW.

Darren, please put your sig back.
Cause either I just plain missed it, or I didn't understand the innuendo .


On MS's latest 10K, there was the need to mention both Firefox & Linux.

"Microsoft Fears Firefox, Lawsuits Over Bugs, SEC Filing Shows"
http://www.techweb.com/wire/software/170101785


Promotional tactics.
I had never seen that before. And if there are some evangelists out there, so what. If I didn't want to use FF, their tactics would not make me change. (PS, I don't use FF, I use Mozilla/SeaMonkey).


Vulnerabilities.
Big woop. So there exist vulnerabilities. And there always will. But IMO, any that exist pale in comparison to what exists on the MS end. Can anyone say, ActiveX.


And on a personal note, for the way that I browse, I cannot imagine, how one can any longer use IE - from a fuctionality standpoint. Actually I dread when I go to a computer, & it only has IE on it.



Somewhat related?

"At LinuxWorld Conference & Expo this August, Microsoft approached the Open Source Development Labs about conducting a jointly funded research study to compare and contrast Windows and Linux. OSDL's head turned Microsoft down flat."
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1854183,00.asp

For the user its great to have choices. To each his own.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

I seem to function quite well using IE, thank you. I have never had a problem with any website in over 10 years using IE, on my machines or any other.

Shelly

Try developing a complex CSS webpage. See if it works properly in IE.

What do you mean he's the Doctor? Doctor Who?

I am not doubting that IE functions (ie: works) on rendering the webpages you visit.

It is the functionality (or the lack thereof) of the program itself. Like tabbed browsing. For me, I find it very difficult to work without tabbed browsing. Mozilla does it. Opera does it. Other IE based browser do it. IE7 will do it.

In the old Netscape days (v2, v3, v4), it would not be uncommon for me to have 20 or so seperate windows open at once. Ever since switching to Mozilla, I can now have 20 or so seperate tabs open in a single window. IE is still in the old days in that respect. Very difficult to go back.

I love tabbed browsing, with one exception. I use the keyboard a lot, learning keyboard shortcuts to do a lot of things other users perform with the mouse. I find it speeds up my computing by using one device over switching between two. I find switching between separate windows is easier with the keyboard than switching between tabs. Yes, you can do switch tabs using the keyboard; but, it is more difficult. If they could do a tab switch as easily as a window switch, I would forget about separate windows altogether.

What do you mean he's the Doctor? Doctor Who?

Ctrl+PageDown
Ctrl+PageUp

Yes, I know you can do that. However, it is easier shifting between windows in my opinion because it brings up the task switching box which you can choose the window you want directly without having to cycle through (and displaying) all the tabs you have open between where you are and where you want to be.

What do you mean he's the Doctor? Doctor Who?

I've used all three, and I am definitely liking Firefox more and more. I used to be an IE user since security was never a huge issue for me.

My main reason for using Firefox are the plugins and tabs. I love the Ad-blocking features in Firefox and Opera. Haven't verified, but I think it takes less RAM to have multiple tabs opened, instead of multiple instances of IE.

Firefox is better at preventing unwanted pop-ups than Opera, and IE is not even in the running in that respect.

Speed-wise, I'm not sure which of the three is the slowest - I almost think Firefox might be a little slower than IE but I haven't really done any real, standardized comparisons.

Anyone understand the cache system for Firefox? The files in the Firefox cache are not the standard ones found in IE - is this for security reasons - since it seems an outside observer would not know what you've been surfing just by casually looking at the cache files?

>Firefox is better at preventing unwanted pop-ups than Opera,
>and IE is not even in the running in that respect.

Depends on the version of IE you're talking about. I remember before installing SP 2 (for XP), the pop-up blocker wasn't there. I know on the several of the machines i've updated wiht SP2 - the pop-up blocker has been working nicely. I particularly like that you can temporarily allow pop-ups in IE by holding down the Ctrl key where as in FF you have to change the settings in the control panel.

Or it prompts you to allow the website to give you popups... its a tooltip that shows up on pages trying to do things you don't want it to do according to your standard settings.

Yes I think Mozilla and Firefox take a good deal of time longer to start initially than any of the other browsers when you have it loaded with lots of plugins, which I do. Its something that I understand and accept as the penality for having the additional modularity that the other browsers don't currently permit.

I've been using Firefox for about 2 years now and am very pleased. I recently installed it on my father's PC. He's very resistant to change or anything new. He's admitted to me that he likes it more and more.

Just tried Firefox 1.0.6 and it's definitely better than a year ago when I had to use a backup image to get my PC back to working condition. It didn't break my dialer this time when I uninstalled it.

Why did I uninstall it? While I liked the lack of popups and the idea of security it offered, it was too slow because I'm using a dialup booster and it wouldn't work with Firefox. Also the Sun Java slowed down the loading of the webpages since that program has to load itself when you first go to a webpage with java.
So back to IE and the good old MSVirtual machine.

Microsoft no longer supports the MS Virtual Machine. They even recommend to download the Sun Java version. Some Java sites don't even work with the Microsoft version.

What do you mean he's the Doctor? Doctor Who?

Just tested my MS java with all the tests listed in my Google search and everything seems to work fine. My security hole is patched and the MSVirtual Machine is undoubtedly still faster on my machine than the Sun Java in Windows XP.
MS had to endorse the SUN system becasue of their court case.

Make sure you use JRE 1.5.0_04. There was a significant performance increase when Java moved to the 1.50 tree.

I once had a client call me up to say "Firefox kicks the ass of Internet Explorer" after installing it for him a few days prior.

About the cache, no, it doesn't store the files individually or necessarily in their original format. Some of it is stored in database format, (binary, with html and scripting as text strings) and images are mostly renamed individual files mapped to original filenames. I would not say that this is done for security, but for speed and reliability. The cache in Mozilla is about the best I've ever used. It works as intended, it is more reliable than Internet Explorer's and doesn't have the problem of disconnected files piling up until manually deleted. Clearing them really deletes the files and clears the tracking indexes. I just set my cache to 250 Mb and forget about it. Images from weeks ago that haven't changed will still load from cache.

Opera's cache is the other side of the coin. I practically have to tell it to only cache images, otherwise I get stale pages. It only checks for changed content based on elapsed time.

Grogan

For some good fun...

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0%2C1697%2C1846294%2C00.asp

What's wrong with using all the browsers?

I personally don't like IE,because of the lack of tabs,but it works most of the time!

Strange that no one mentioned Maxthon.
I used Firefox for about 2 months. I really liked the 'Tabbed Browsing" feature. Had to revert back to IE for some places FF wouldn't go. I especially didn't like, for instance, that in some forums after reading a thread it wouldn't change color to show that it's been read. Maybe I wasn't using it right.
Right now I'm using Maxthon, formerly known as MyIE2. It does all that FF didn't do for me. This is probably the closest you'll get to IE with tabbed browsing until IE7 comes along.
Just my 2 cents worth.

Maxthon is basically I.E. with tabs. You run it using the same internet options as I.E. You are no more secure.

Might even be more insecure... If its like other products that are based off of a core that's been slightly modified, it takes a while for that second stage developer to incorporate the change/patches from the parent product.

AOL's "new" Netscape is a prime example since its based off of Mozilla's Gecko core. They've typically had to take an additional week to patch their version after Mozilla patches its core.

I haven't read all the replies, too many & I haven't the time.

I haven't posted my thoughts on Firefox, but after trying it I don't like it.

too much messing about getting tabs to wor, like extensions etc.

I use Maxthon and Opera, they do them straight out of the box.

No doubt I'll be "charged" with FFox bashing, but that is what I think of FFox.

Thank you
Ian

Ian,

I don't feel you are FFox-bashing. If that is how you feel after giving the program a fair chance, then that is very fine.

What do you mean he's the Doctor? Doctor Who?

This was just released last night:
http://www.getfoxie.com/


Its a plugin for IE that makes it look like FireFox, and adds much of the missing functionality.

AdBlock
Never see another ad, banner or pop-up again. AdBlock will block all internet ads – replacing them with placeholders so it won't hinder normal surfing.

Tabbed Browsing
View more than one web page in a single window with this time saving feature. Open links in the background so that they're ready for viewing when you're ready to read them.

Groupmarks
Groupmark all your favorite web sites (or the sites you visit daily) and open them all at once with one click!

Smarter Search
Smarter Search integrates seamlessly into Internet Explorer right into the Address Bar taking up very little space. Smarter Search provides fast access to weather forecasts, stock quotes, news headlines and more.

Desktop Search
Find your files, documents, music, pictures, and even video hiding on your hard drive instantly. Search your browser’s cache to view web pages you’ve seen even when you’re not online.

Security Firewall
Add an extra level of protection with this small yet powerful Firewall application especially designed to block out Adware, Internet Exploits, Spammers, Spyware, Worms and Trojans.

Swift Sweeper (Adware & Spyware Remover)
Instantly scan and remove all Adware, Dialers, Error Hijackers, Homepage Hijackers, Hostile ActiveX, Key Loggers, Remote Hacking Tools, Search Hijackers, Spyware, Trackware and Trojan Downloaders.

Flashblock
Block all Macromedia Flash content from loading on any webpage saving you bandwidth and CPU.

Popup Blocking
Stop annoying popup ads in their tracks with Foxie's built-in popup blocker.

Privacy Cleaner
Erase traces of your online activities such as your Internet history, cookies, and auto-complete form entries.

Privacy Shield
Built with your security in mind, Foxie comes equipped with a special HTTP Filter that scans information as it being passed by your browser, removing sensitive data when found.

Secure Update
Routinely check for security and feature updates through our automated Secure Update system.

Infinity Button
The World Wide Web is as infinite as the universe itself. Do some exploring using the Infinity Button.

Fully customizable
Pick and choose which features you like, change the default start page, change the keyboard shortcuts, whatever, however, whenever, just the way you want it!

Setup's a Snap
At only 745KB, Foxie takes just a few minutes to download over a slow connection and seconds over a fast connection. The installer gets you set up quickly and the program integrates seamlessly into Internet Explorer - so you can start surfing right away.

I gave Foxie a download, and installed it on another machine.

I have not tested all the features, but right off the bat, I noticed that it does block some ads, but still let some through that Firefox does not (using the custom list of course - so maybe not a fair comparison). I couldn't find an option to include your own ad-block list - maybe it's there, but I haven't played around with it enough - if it's not, the developers should think about adding that.