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elhvbMon May-06-02 09:09 PM
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"OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"


  

          

6:05PM local time. Six shots were fired at him from close range, he's wounded in his head and chest, unknown if he's still alive.

He is/was a very controversial political figure, it's never happened here in the Netherlands in modern history a politician was shot because of his ideas.

_________
Do not assume anything

  

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                                    hey.. Grogan
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doctormidnightMon May-06-02 09:14 PM
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#1. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to elhvb (Reply # 0)


  

          

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/05/06/fortuyn.shooting/index.html


  

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GroganMon May-06-02 09:15 PM
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#2. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to elhvb (Reply # 0)


  

          

And probably not coincidently, the Muslim element comes into play. "he cricicized the Muslim religion as being a backward one". That's a death sentence.

Grogan

  

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elhvbMon May-06-02 09:22 PM
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#3. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 2)


  

          

I'm not used to this kind of attacks because of telling people your ideas. As I said, this is a first-timer in modern history. The last time this kind of thing happened here must have been in the 18th century or so...

Thanks for the link...

_________
Do not assume anything

  

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GroganMon May-06-02 09:24 PM
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#4. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to elhvb (Reply # 3)
Mon May-06-02 09:29 PM

  

          

>I'm not used to this kind of attacks because of telling
>people your ideas.

Of course you aren't! Nor should you be.

P.S. I am very angry to see things like this happen... even three thousand miles away.

Grogan

  

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SonnyMon May-06-02 09:25 PM
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#5. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 4)


  

          

Unfortunatly, the whole world has to face up to this deadly manace.






  

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elhvbMon May-06-02 09:26 PM
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#6. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 4)


  

          

It seems all parties have stopped their campaigns for the coming elections (May 15th) until further notice, I don't expect them to start again...

_________
Do not assume anything

  

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elhvbMon May-06-02 09:27 PM
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#8. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to elhvb (Reply # 6)


  

          

Update: he died of his wounds.

_________
Do not assume anything

  

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doctormidnightMon May-06-02 09:27 PM
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#7. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to elhvb (Reply # 3)


  

          

Telling people your ideas as a private citizen is one thing, saying you will support and enforce religious bigotry is another. I don't particulary care for any religion, in fact I think it often does more harm than good, but no way in hell would I EVER support or endorse a person that made the kind of statements that Fortuyn has.

  

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elhvbMon May-06-02 09:29 PM
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#9. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 7)


  

          

It seems a lot of people living here thought otherwise. Not sure what their reaction will be to this all.

_________
Do not assume anything

  

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doctormidnightMon May-06-02 09:33 PM
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#10. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to elhvb (Reply # 9)


  

          

Imagine yourself on the other side of the coin. Your just a regular Joe, you go to work and do your job, you got a nice family and such. Then some dude just comes out of left (or in this case, right) field and starts with his Anti-Islamic bullshit. Or what if he had been Anti-Semitic? I'm not saying he should have been killed, because thats not part of Democracy either.

  

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GroganMon May-06-02 09:37 PM
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#12. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 10)
Mon May-06-02 09:37 PM

  

          

Ok, I'll imagine myself on the other side of the coin. Having to put up with Muslim extremists with their Anti-Western attitudes. If you don't live like them you are an infidel and it is their religious duty to punish you.

Grogan

  

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elhvbMon May-06-02 09:42 PM
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#14. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 12)


  

          

The funny thing is, all muslims I know are not that extreme. It is just a few of them that seem to spoil it for the rest of them.

I think the impact of this is now starting to become clear to me.

l8r...

_________
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GroganMon May-06-02 09:55 PM
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#18. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to elhvb (Reply # 14)


  

          

Of course it's not all of them. I've known quite a few of them too. Some of them I've called "friend" (which is not something I say lightly). Their religion and culture never once came into play.

Good people are good people.

Grogan

  

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jasonlevineTue May-07-02 02:06 AM
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#34. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to elhvb (Reply # 14)


  

          

Not all Muslims are of the radical extremist variety, but unfortunately the extremists are the more vocal group and a lot of moderate Muslims don't want to speak against them for fear of reprisals. So the net effect is that the extremists have hijacked the Islamic religion.

- Jason Levine
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elhvbMon May-06-02 09:37 PM
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#13. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 10)


  

          

I am one of these regular Joe's although probably better educated than average. No matter how, it does not make any sense to shoot a politician. Not here anyways...

_________
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GroganMon May-06-02 09:34 PM
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#11. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 7)


  

          

Doc, give us a break. Muslim culture is one to talk about religious bigotry. It doesn't matter if you support what he said or not... he's got every right to say it privately or publicly and shouldn't be shot for it.

Grogan

  

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doctormidnightMon May-06-02 09:42 PM
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#15. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 11)


  

          

Thats why I said he shouldn't have been shot, Grogan!!!


"If you don't live like them you are an infidel and it is their religious duty to punish you."

It doesn't say that anywhere in the Qur'an. And your comment about Muslim extremeist is just that, its about extremeists, not the average Muslim living in the U.S., Canada, or The Netherlands, which is what I was talking about. Eastern Europe, definitely..think Bosnia.

  

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GroganMon May-06-02 09:50 PM
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#16. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 15)


  

          

>Thats why I said he shouldn't have been shot, Grogan!!!
>

You hadn't said that yet, Doctormidnight!!!

>
>"If you don't live like them you are an infidel and it is
>their religious duty to punish you."
>
>It doesn't say that anywhere in the Qur'an. And your comment
>about Muslim extremeist is just that, its about extremeists,
>not the average Muslim living in the U.S., Canada, or The
>Netherlands, which is what I was talking about. Eastern
>Europe, definitely..think Bosnia.

It is obvious that there are a great many Muslim extremists living in our countries. Many of them have sentenced you to death. They just haven't carried out the sentence yet.

Grogan

  

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doctormidnightMon May-06-02 09:53 PM
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#17. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 16)


  

          

hehe, well, you can give them a call for me and tell 'em i said "bring it on".

  

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ShellyMon May-06-02 10:01 PM
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#20. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 16)


  

          

Islam is not a violent religion, but it has been perverted by extremeists, and not just a small minority either. It is the responsibility of Muslims to have the courage to set their own house in order.

Shelly

  

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RoniMon May-06-02 09:57 PM
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#19. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 15)


  

          

It doesn't say that anywhere in the Qur'an

Not true, you can read Koran's ninth chapter and fifth verse.

Muslims are exhorted to "fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them. And seize them and beleaguer them and lie in wait for them

And there are other references used by extrimists to justify their actions.



  

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doctormidnightMon May-06-02 10:03 PM
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#21. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Roni (Reply # 19)


  

          

The text from my version of the Qur'an:

"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

Of course, only a complete psychopath would use this as an excuse to murder anybody. And the friends that I have that are Muslim aren't psychopaths.

  

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RoniMon May-06-02 10:11 PM
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#22. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 21)


  

          

Yeah that sounds like a good endorsement of anybody who doesn't think like us is free to go along with his life.



  

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doctormidnightMon May-06-02 10:20 PM
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#23. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Roni (Reply # 22)


  

          

You have to remember that the Qur'an hasn't changed much since the 7th century, so a lot of its text seems dated, but for the most part it is in line with other religious texts of its era (i.e., kill the bastards). The difference is that Islam has been hijacked, so meaning becomes very confusing, especially in places like Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc.

  

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RoniMon May-06-02 10:28 PM
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#24. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 23)


  

          

All of that is pretty and all but I was responding to this:

Grogan: "If you don't live like them you are an infidel and it is their religious duty to punish you."
doctormidnight: "It doesn't say that anywhere in the Qur'an."

Of course it says that and more, now you say it is old, but we knew that.



  

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doctormidnightMon May-06-02 10:55 PM
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#28. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Roni (Reply # 24)


  

          

I guess i read his post differently. I took it to mean that Grogan was saying that killing the "infidels" was part of Islamic belief today. Thats why I said that wasn't in the Qur'an. The reference you cited is directed towards other Muslims, who during the beginning were in favor of a polytheistic form of Islam, and Allah didn't like that too much. Thats just the way I thought the passage was going, and thats why I said that a passage like that didn't exist. My bad, sorry for the confusion

  

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RoniMon May-06-02 11:23 PM
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#30. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 28)


  

          

"The reference you cited is directed towards other Muslims"

I don't know from where you got that interpretation, it is clearly directed to, Pagans, idolaters, infidels etc (many translations) you can put there anybody who is not a Muslim.

There are several passages like this, I can find at least ten.

Even when this is old, still is thought in schools. Get this little two passages from the official school curriculum in Saudi Arabia (mandatory in every school)

A passage on page 64 under the title "Judgement Day," says: "The Hour will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews, and Muslims will kill all the Jews."

"It is compulsory for the Muslims to be loyal to each other and to consider the infidels their enemy."

References here, and here.



  

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jasonlevineTue May-07-02 02:09 AM
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#35. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Roni (Reply # 30)


  

          

Kind of puts that Saudi Peace Plan in a whole new light, huh? They promise that if Israel pulls back they'll publically state that Israel has a right to exist. Yet they're still teaching their kids that Israel's existance is only temporary until the Jihad wipes it off the map. (And the Saudis are one of the biggest supporters of the suicide bombers.)

- Jason Levine
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doctormidnightTue May-07-02 02:16 AM
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#36. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Roni (Reply # 30)


  

          

Sorry it took so long to respond, Roni, i had a final. I spoke to a professor of Middle Eastern and Islamic history, and he seems to think the context of that passage (9:5) is in fact directed towards polytheist Muslims, not towards groups such as Jews and Christians and non-Muslims. However, i am aware that there are several (probably over 100) passages in the Qur'an that advocate enslavement and slaughter of Jews, etc.

  

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AlTue May-07-02 04:29 AM
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#37. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 36)


  

          

Unfortunately, one of the major issues facing the Muslim world is the lack of a single guiding influence on the meaning of the Koran. Your professor may think one thing, but a religious leader in Saudi Arabia may think another. Who decides? The individual worshiper. And currently, there seem to be an awful lot who have decided to follow the path to violence.



  

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doctormidnightTue May-07-02 05:03 AM
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#38. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Al (Reply # 37)


  

          

If i remember correctly, they used to have a leader called a Caliph or Caliphate (or something like that) that was supposed to be a leader, then the power was transferred over to what I think was regional spiritual leaders...thats when the shit hit the fan.

  

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jasonlevineTue May-07-02 06:24 AM
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#44. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Al (Reply # 37)


  

          

That's the same problem facing the Jewish religion today. One rabbi will make a ruling and another might make a completely different ruling. Thus you get a situation similar to what happened with my parents' rabbi and my brother-in-law: His mother converted to Judaism by a Conservative rabbi years back (before he was born). Since the conversion wasn't Orthodox, my parents' rabbi refused to accept it as valid (and by extension, refused to accept my sister's husband as Jewish). Sometimes it seems that we Jews would wind up killing each other if it weren't for the common threat of someone else wanting to kill us!

The Jewish faith does have it's fanatical segments (as does any religion), but luckily they don't have as loud a voice as the Islamic radicals seem to have.

- Jason Levine
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scaramoucheMon May-06-02 10:40 PM
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#26. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 23)


  

          

Unless I'm mistaken the immigrant population (Arab, etc) were brought into the European countries to do the "menial" labour, the local population were either unwilling or too lazy to perform. Now comes the problems.

Nobody yet knows who shot him but remember he was openly gay, and there's a large segment of the local population who are anti-gay, to the point of violence.

A gay person running for President, even of a so-called "enlightened country" like the US and/or Canada, in my opinion, has a strong likelihood of being assassinated especially if they were leading the polls. Actually more so in the USA. Look at the amount of kooks running around, religous and otherwise.

Pipe bombs are being planted in the Midwest and there's not even a reason.

I really don't think we should blame the Muslims for all our ills although I guess they, at the moment make convenient scapegoats.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

  

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GroganMon May-06-02 11:21 PM
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#29. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 26)


  

          

You're right, it could be any kook that did it. We don't know yet. I'm guessing that being homosexual wouldn't get a person shot in The Netherlands though. We'll see. Until I see otherwise, I suspect his Anti Muslim sentiment is what got him killed.

We've seen extremists sentence people to death for far less. I'll bet if Salmon Rushdie wrote a book "Buddha is a Big Fat Goof" instead of "The Satanic Verses" which ridicules Islam to some degree, he wouldn't have gotten a death sentence declared on him by fanatics.

Some day, they will get him, too. That's what fanatics do.

I'm not against any religion... just keep it out of my face and I'll respect beliefs.

>I really don't think we should blame the Muslims for all our
>ills although I guess they, at the moment make convenient
>scapegoats.

Grogan

  

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GroganTue May-07-02 05:30 AM
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#40. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 29)


  

          

Ok, looks like I was wrong about that. There has been an update, it appears that the suspect is a dutch citizen, and so far they just say he's a psycho.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/05/06/fortuyn.shooting/index.html

"We're not yet completely sure, but the most probable is that the killer is a psycho," a police source said.

"We think he had heard Fortuyn on the radio in a long program and had gone to the exit of the studio to wait and shot him. It seems that he was alone."

The shooter appeared to have acted on impulse and without much planning, police said.







Grogan

  

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TrebuchetTue May-07-02 05:41 AM
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#41. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 40)
Tue May-07-02 05:44 AM

          

Good point, Grogan. Not all attempted assassinations of controversial people are because they are controversial. Sometimes it's just because they are famous and the assassin is a loon and craves notoriety. (Remember John Hinkley? He wanted to attract Jodi Foster's attention, so he shot the President of the United States.)


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EthanMon May-06-02 11:29 PM
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#32. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 26)


  

          

>Unless I'm mistaken the immigrant population (Arab, etc)
>were brought into the European countries to do the "menial"
>labour, the local population were either unwilling or too
>lazy to perform. Now comes the problems.

foreigners are imported by capitalists to do work for a price that local people can not afford to work for.

Ethan

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
"Why shouldn't the American people take half my money from me? I took it all from them." - Edward Filene

  

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elhvbMon May-06-02 11:45 PM
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#33. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Ethan (Reply # 32)


  

          

will not work for. People were imported to do the low-payed dirty jobs because we felt too good to do those. How wrong we were...

Yes, we were tolerant, we still are to a certain extent. But things have changed, quite rapidly I might add...

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TrebuchetTue May-07-02 05:19 AM
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#39. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to elhvb (Reply # 33)


          

If I've read the press reports correctly, he was both openly gay and a radical right-wing politician? Isn't that a somewhat unusual combination? It certainly would be here in the US. (I've seen gay conservatives, but not any considered "hard" right.)


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NapoleanMon May-06-02 10:30 PM
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#25. "hey.. Grogan"
In response to Roni (Reply # 22)


          

I encourge you to read more about Islam and Muslims and not simply sterotyping them and spreading a wrong propaganda.

  

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GroganMon May-06-02 10:42 PM
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#27. "RE: hey.. Grogan"
In response to Napolean (Reply # 25)


  

          

I encourage you to start reading the News, and stop living in a dream world.

>I encourge you to read more about Islam and Muslims and not
>simply sterotyping them and spreading a wrong propaganda.

Grogan

  

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tpikdaveTue May-07-02 10:58 AM
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#56. "RE: hey.. Grogan"
In response to Napolean (Reply # 25)


          

Muslims or whoever, I refuse to be a victim held hostage by a religion whether it is just a segment of said religion or not. These so called nice peaceful, gentle people who follow the prophet Mohammed should set their own house in order and go after those responsible. If they make no effort to do so then they should be considered just as dangerous and be dealt the hand they wish to play with.

  

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EthanMon May-06-02 11:24 PM
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#31. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to elhvb (Reply # 0)


  

          

My condolences to the Dutch people, probably the friendliest and most tolerant people I have ever had the privilege of knowing.

Ethan

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
"Why shouldn't the American people take half my money from me? I took it all from them." - Edward Filene

  

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scaramoucheTue May-07-02 05:43 AM
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#42. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Ethan (Reply # 31)


  

          

You're right they are the most tolerant and friendly. However, Pim Fortuyn's views far from that. While I don't condone the murder calling the Islamic culture a "backward race", plays to the ignorant masses but does not exactly endear one to the Arab Countries. I hate to say this but Holland is better off without a leader with those "extremist" views.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

  

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TrebuchetTue May-07-02 05:47 AM
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#43. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 42)


          

So you are implying that it's OK to assassinate leaders with controversial views? Who decides what is "controversial"? That's a very slippery slope to start down...


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jasonlevineTue May-07-02 06:30 AM
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#45. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 43)


  

          

I don't think he meant that it was good for him to be assasinated. Just that Holland is better off without him leading the country. No matter what a person's views, he or she shouldn't be killed because of them. Of course, if those views lead to or incite violence against a person or group of people, legal or military action (depending on the situation) is justified.

- Jason Levine
Please donate to PCQandA!

  

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TrebuchetTue May-07-02 06:53 AM
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#46. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to jasonlevine (Reply # 45)


          

As I understand it, the victim was in the lead to head a major Dutch political party, not to be Prime Minister or some other senior government official. It is more as if somebody had killed Tom Dashle, the Senate majority leader in the US.

But it looks more as if his murder was not politically motivated, but rather the act of a deranged individual.


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ShellyTue May-07-02 07:16 AM
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#47. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 46)


  

          

In my book, a murderer is by definition, deranged.

Shelly

  

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TrebuchetTue May-07-02 07:20 AM
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#48. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 47)


          

That's an interesting point of view, Shelly, but it isn't the legal one in any jurisdiction I'm aware of. Plenty of murderers are perfectly rational. Sometimes people are simply evil.


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elhvbTue May-07-02 10:00 AM
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#49. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 48)


  

          

They seem to have arrested the gunner. He is white, speaks Dutch and seems to be a left-wing extremist. You can stop your Muslim thread now I think...

_________
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doctormidnightTue May-07-02 10:06 AM
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#50. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to elhvb (Reply # 49)


  

          

I don't see a reason to stop, I'm learning still.

  

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elhvbTue May-07-02 10:11 AM
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#51. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 50)


  

          

Well, yes. I meant the muslim connection with this case. The subject in this thread is not what the discussion is about in this part of the thread, as so happens in many of the OT threads

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doctormidnightTue May-07-02 10:13 AM
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#52. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to elhvb (Reply # 51)


  

          

OT threads take on a life of their own, controlling them is a futile effort. But they can often be a great learning environment. I once used a thread as a footnote on a paper for my Imperialism class, because someone had said something really interesting and provocative that neither I nor the professor had ever thought of before.

  

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golouisTue May-07-02 10:20 AM
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#53. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 50)


          

Just noticed this thread.

How sad that earlier contributors were so quick to condemn before there was any hard evidence.

In my book that's the beginning of the slippery road to killing someone whose views you don't agree with

Louis

  

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GroganTue May-07-02 10:28 AM
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#54. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to golouis (Reply # 53)


  

          

Yeah well, take a look at what's going on in the World and tell me that it was unjustified to think that.

Who kills people that don't agree with their views? Not me, that's for sure. Who blew up two skyscrapers and killed thousands of people this fall? Sure as shit wasn't me.

So spare me your self righteous condescension.

Grogan

  

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golouisTue May-07-02 10:58 AM
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#57. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 54)


          

Sorry Grogan.

I'm not accusing you of being a killer or potential killer.

Just bemoaning the fact that if people were a little more open-minded on two counts:
1. Not to condemn when there is no hard evidence (a basic premise in our western system of justice)
2. To respect others with different views (a basic premise in western democracy)

we wouldn't have political assassinations or so-called political terrorism.

We'd all benefit from a more tolerant society

Louis

  

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doctormidnightTue May-07-02 11:04 AM
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#58. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to golouis (Reply # 57)


  

          

I for one am sick of the whole over-use of the word "tolerance", its become a meaningless word in the whole liberal lexicon. We don't need tolerance, we need sound decisions and good judgement, all based on reality and sound logic.

  

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BackflipTue May-07-02 03:11 PM
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#59. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 58)


  

          

Actually that is almost one of the arguments used by Pim Fortuyn. Because of the political consensus which has developed in Europe there is very little noticeable change in politics between any of the parties. Many structure their debate on a consensual mandate which is built on agreements on immigration, the European Union and economic issues. This has lead to a sizeable disfranchised minority who no longer vote, and in some cases are willing to resort to violence (an Italian politician was also recently assassinated), or vent their political energy in single issue politics. Fortuyn was attempting to break that cosy consensus by attracting the votes of those disenchanted because their views were not being heard or being represented. As Treb noted, he was an amalgam of differing views (he had been a marxist), leftwing on homosexuality, drugs and sexual permissiveness, while being right on others such as anti-immigration and increasing privatisation. And it may be that it was the threat poised to his very liberal views (homosexuality, drugs, women's rights) from Islam which motivated him. Afterall, Rotterdam, where his power base was, has an immigrant population amounting to almost 50%. He believed the cultural values of the indigenous population had to be defended against what he regarded as an alien 'backward' culture, mainly from poor rural areas of Muslim countries, which stubbornly refused to assimulate. Though anti-immigration (because he thought that the Netherlands was over-populated at 16 million), he was not anti-immigrant and had no policy on repatriation, (he just wanted immigration halted), unlike Haider (Austria) and Le Pen (France), both of whom he thought were abhorrent, especially Le Pen and his remarks about the Holocaust.




  

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doctormidnightTue May-07-02 10:31 AM
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#55. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to golouis (Reply # 53)


  

          

I didn't see anybody come out and say that "it was a Muslim". Grogan stated that some of the mans comments were a death sentence, but thats just the way it is, if a person had said that about Jews I probably would have said it was a death sentence as well.

  

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scaramoucheTue May-07-02 07:16 PM
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#60. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 55)


  

          

The greatest mass murderers in history sure as heck weren't Arabs. The white Anglo-saxon madman Adolph Hitler, gassed and murdered, over six million Jews (men, women and children), for no reason other than their ethnic race besides igniting a World War that killed another untold millions.

Then you have the Japanese who raped, pillaged and murdered millions of Chinese and Koreans, not to mention Phillipines, Indonesians, Americans. They committed acts that make Ghengis Khan look like a choir boy Now their text books in Japan tell them that the war did not happen.

The above two acts were committed for no other reason than "ethnic cleansing" and military domination.

All through history from the Crusades, Spanish conquests, British occupation no country or race has any right to feel proud of themselves.


Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

  

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GroganTue May-07-02 08:01 PM
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#61. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 60)
Tue May-07-02 08:04 PM

  

          

All irrelevant... it's what's going on today that counts. Today, it is it's the Muslim extremists that are the problem.

Anyone who denies that they are violent, intolerant of other views and dangerous is just arguing for the sake of arguing.

There's no justification for what they are doing. The very reason they are oppressed is their attitudes.

Grogan

  

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BackflipTue May-07-02 08:24 PM
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#62. "RE: OT- Pim Fortuyn was shot"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 60)
Tue May-07-02 10:18 PM

  

          

Actually, I don't mind one bit that the Romans invaded and occupied many parts of Britain. They imposed many tangible benefits such as a systematic code of law (parts of which are still in use in Scotland today), roads, some of which are still in use, and many more advancements. Being 'primative' doesn't necessarily equate to being eco-friendly or cuddling the neighbouring tribe, nor did occupation necessarily mean enslavement and pillage. Perhaps it is true that the then inhabitants could see no particular gain in forgoing painting themselves blue, or no longer having to depend on the legal judgements of their capricious leaders, and may even have resented coming into contact with Greek and Roman philosophy/maths/culture/architecture/art, yet it would be difficult to argue that a quantum leap forward was not effected. Often, the resident population would become surrogate rulers in a partnership of government. I believe the same could be said for some other instances of conquest.




  

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